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Around SBN: The Worst Team Ever Projected?

Chris Paul and Deron Williams... Again

I've written at long lengths in the past about the Paul/Williams debate. Another post on the subject would pretty much be taking the already dead horse, running it over with a dump truck, incinerating it, cryogenically freezing it, tossing it in a black hole, and watching it be exuded as Hawking Radiation. In other words, unnecessary.

So why exactly am I writing about this? Well, Basketball John at SLC Dunk did a post over the weekend on the whole debate. I normally wouldn't respond to a Williams > Paul post, but Basketball John does a great job over at the site, and I enjoy reading SLC Dunk. So I figure I'll explain why his post is misleading.

He makes three major points: (1) CP3 and DWill are only separated by 0.5 assists per game, (2) CP3 and DWill have been headed in opposite directions the last two months, and (3) DWill scored 30 points in 5 straight games, and thus we "[could] see what he had in him."

(1) Only a 0.5 Assist Separation?

If you've been reading this blog for any length of time, you know how much I despise per game stats. Per game stats are among the most misleading statistics you can possibly cite. Why? All games are not created equal. Different games have differing amounts of possessions.

Specifically, the New Orleans Hornets play at an absurdly slow rate (87.8 possessions per game), and the Jazz play at a much crisper rate (92.2 possessions per game).

Star-divide

Assists per possession is the stat we should be looking at. In essence, Paul is being penalized for having fewer opportunities per game if we go by assists per game. Chris Paul averages 0.546 assists per possession; Williams averages 0.471. That's a far bigger disparity than assists per game indicates. If Williams played the same number of possessions as Chris Paul, he'd only average 9.7 assists per game.

(2) Paul Going Down, Williams Going Up?

Nope. This is what we refer to as "statistical aberration." Also known as: stuff happens. A two month sample is subject to a ridiculous amount of statistical variation. Not to mention that Paul recently hurt his groin, and still doesn't look to be at full health.

Add in the fact that Paul started off the year extraordinarily hot- there had to be some regression to the mean. Eschewing a holistic look at Paul and Williams' careers in favor of "nifty graphs" of the last two months is statistically unsound. Those graphs are neither nifty nor do they actually show anything of value.

(3) We've Now Seen What Deron Williams "Could" Do

This is probably the most interesting argument. Here's the flaw: a player's value is not measured by his points per game. The graph illustrates Williams' rising points per game values. A close look at his season indicates that DWill is shooting significantly worse from the field, his already bad rebounding rates are even lower, his  turnover rate has become a little bit better but is still poor. His increased PPG value is more a result of his increased field goals attempted, rather than an increase in efficiency.

And Some Other Stuff...

In the past, Williams has only ever had one advantage on Paul- his shooting. This year, Paul is out eFG%'ing him by an entire 20 points. By the same logic I used to defend Paul's sinking stats, I will say that Williams eFG% should definitely regress to the mean (and become far better). But still... Paul is pretty much at the shooting level that Williams was at his career best (53% vs. 54%). Even if we assume that Williams recovers to last year's levels, shooting is all tied up.

Add on to that: (1) Paul is much better at getting to the line, (2) Paul is much better at converting from the line, (3) Paul is approaching double the rebound rate of Williams, (4) Paul's steals rate is more than double that of Williams', (5) Paul turns the ball over about 3 times fewer per 100 possessions, (6) Paul is accountable for a higher percentage of his team's offense (usage%), even with Boozer out for SLC, (7) Paul plays more minutes per game, (8) Paul is required to create his own shot twice as often as Williams (measured by assisted on %), (9) Paul is significantly better at finishing near the hoop (+8%).

Given the above paragraph, the reason people think Paul is better than Williams is clear. It isn't that they "don't watch Deron play enough." They think Paul is better because he is, plainly, better.

One last point: size. This is the last difference Utah fans cling to, now that the shooting percentages have evened out. Here's the thing: Size inherently means nothing. Size only has meaning when it translates to actual differences on the court.

When we can't see the effects of size difference on the court, size by itself has no meaning. That's what is happening with Paul and Williams. DWill is clearly much more imposing physically. But it doesn't translate in the slightest onto the court, offensively. It doesn't translate at all in terms of rebounding. Emerging defensive stats (adjusted +/-, Basketball Prospectus' DMult) are beginning to prove more and more that Paul is one of the premier defenders in the NBA, regardless of his rep as a "gambler." Both of those stats rate Williams extremely poorly.

Still, "is [comparing the two] totally out of line?  Are we comparing Rafael Araújo to Dwight Howard?" wonders Basketball John.

Nope, not at all. According to PER, it's more like comparing Dwight Howard to Andrew Bogut.

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Comments

Display:

You just took SLC Dunk to school!

Anyone who thinks CP3 is worse then D-Will is absolutely out of their mind. No way in hell is Williams even close as you clearly stated above. Great blog!

Devin Brown is a basketball God!

by chandlerfan6 on Feb 24, 2009 8:35 PM CST reply actions  

um...

said a man who has “Devin Brown is a basketball God!” in his signature.

D-Bag.

We bleed True Blue.
www.truebluejazz.com

by CB Jack on Feb 25, 2009 1:27 PM CST up reply actions  

FOR SURE!

And if you cant understand sarcasm, then your the “D-Bag”.

Devin Brown is a basketball God!

by chandlerfan6 on Feb 25, 2009 2:07 PM CST up reply actions  

Dude...

Devin Brown blocked his own jumpshot the other night… that’s godlike.

by Caleb462 on Feb 25, 2009 2:38 PM CST up reply actions  

There's been a debate?

Who’s been debating? Paul is arguably the 3rd-best player in the league right now. Williams isn’t the third-best point guard in the league.

by NittanyCub on Feb 24, 2009 10:50 PM CST reply actions  

You went to a lot of trouble

when you could have just said “Look at the PER, Jazz fans.”

Great stuff as usual. I read the article over at SLCdunk and hoped you would write a counter-argument.

by Cablinasian on Feb 24, 2009 11:32 PM CST reply actions  

Brilliant blog!

Nough said you have closed the book….again…

New Orleans Hornets: The most inconsistent team in the NBA.

by Grayson on Feb 25, 2009 12:14 AM CST reply actions  

I've written about this myself,

and I continue to be surprised that this even comes up. Chris Paul shoots better, gets more assists, gets more steals, and rebounds better. He leads Williams in PER by over 9 points. He has over twice the win shares. This isn’t even a competition.

And, moreover, Williams isn’t even the 2nd (or 3rd) best point guard in the league this year. Of the four best PGs in the league, he rebounds the least, steals the least, and generates the most turnovers. He has the second-best AST%, but that doesn’t make up for his other deficiencies. I have no idea why this keeps coming up when (although he’s a great player) the gap between Paul and the rest of the league is so huge. The argument isn’t Williams vs Paul, it’s Williams vs Harris vs Nelson. And Williams still probably loses.

Personally, I’m most tired of the head-to-head arguments. As I recall, Aaron Brooks guards Paul fairly well, but nobody would take me seriously if I suggested Brooks was anywhere near as good as Paul.

by Only_A_Lad on Feb 25, 2009 1:53 AM CST reply actions  

Yeah this debate is closed

And has been for a while.

Williams is a great player, and will be one of the best point guards in the game for years to come, but he’s just not at Paul’s level and I don’t think he ever will be. Just about everyone except for Jazz fans realizes this. And I’m not ragging on Jazz fans… I used to be one! But come on… it’s not even close, just like Kobe is not even close to MJ even though young Kobe-lovin kids and Laker fans continue to argue it.

by Caleb462 on Feb 25, 2009 12:26 PM CST reply actions  

When all is said and done

Paul will likely be considered not only one of the greatest point guards ever, but one of the greatest players. Dee-Ron has yet to prove he can beat out others like Parker, Kidd, and/or Billups to be an All-Star.

by m-W on Feb 25, 2009 12:47 PM CST reply actions  

I disagree with Billups, he’s pretty overrated imho. Nuggets are better this year due to Nene and lack of AI’s cancer.

by Fundefined on Feb 25, 2009 1:45 PM CST up reply actions  

CP3 > DW8!

Devin Brown is a basketball God!

by chandlerfan6 on Feb 25, 2009 2:09 PM CST up reply actions  

AI has cancer?

Man I feel bad for A.I. – his style of ball just doesn’t seem to translate to winning in the NBA, but I still like the guy.

I do think Billups deserves a lot of credit for Denver’s success though, but so does Nene… and Birdman!

by Caleb462 on Feb 25, 2009 2:42 PM CST up reply actions  

Didn't mean to stir up a Hornets nest (no pun intend..., okay maybe)

Great stuff here

Anyway my point was, and I did a poor job of it, was that the last two months where Deron has turned it up had gone virtually unrecognized. Had it been Paul, it would have been a different story. Hence my comment about not getting seen enough. I admit that I don’t get to see Paul play either except on national TV or when they play the Jazz.

Because the two play in two different sytems, we’ll never be able to accurately compare the two statistically. You can used pace, possessions, or what have you. But both play different roles in their respective system and have different teammates.

Paul is counted on a lot more in his system for passing and scoring. He accounts for something like 51% of NO’s team assists whereas Deron is at about 41% (that was my last check, I haven’t checked recently). The Jazz lead the league in assists and so because of the system, a lot of other players get the dime.

As far as rebounds, Deron plays with some of the best rebounders in the game. He’s not needed in that regard.

I do wish Deron wouldn’t turn it over as much.

Anyone have PER and such for just the last two months (Jan & Feb)? That’s what I would like to see.

Would the conversation be any different if Deron and Paul had been drafted opposite?

And Deron had a slight injury to begin the year. Could have affected his earlier performance.

by Basketball John on Feb 25, 2009 3:49 PM CST reply actions  

+1000

I think you nailed it. I agree 100% that Deron has gone undervalued this year due to the injury and random stuff that propped up. I know the stats indicate that Jameer and Devin have played at his level or better this year, but I think Deron’s overall larger sample indicates that he’ll be the best among any of those.

Anyways, I agree about your system comment also. Player value in the NBA isn’t only dependent upon player skill as you allude to. It’s due to a confluence of factors- skill, teammates, coaching, team strategy. Under a specific team strategy, a certain player might be able to contribute more value than under another (assuming the same talent). For me, total value provided is the be-all end-all, regardless of whether his system benefits him more than another hypothetical system would.

Your point seems to be that provided value doesn’t necessarily tell us, with 100% clarity, who has the better underlying skill set. Absolutely valid point, and one I would not disagree with in the slightest. Put Chris Paul in a system where he has to set constant screens and move around a lot more without the ball (ie, a UTA or an LA) and you can make a case that he would provide less value. His basic skill set hasn’t changed, but his surrounding factors have.

Your point of “we’ll never be able to accurately compare the two statistically” is a good one. The caveat I would throw in there is that we can’t accurately measure their underlying skill level statistically. We can never say Chris Paul is better than Deron Williams at basketball, in an absolute sense. What we can say is that one player has provided more value, more additional points scored and points defensed, and more wins created over the course of X number of seasons.

I think the subtle difference in what’s being discussed- basketball ability vs. value provided- is something most fans and analysts gloss over. I’m really glad you brought this up here; I think I may actually toss this comment and your comment up as a sort of reference post.

Thanks for stopping by.

by Rohan on Feb 25, 2009 6:18 PM CST up reply actions  

Very well put. Nicely done.

The more you try to erase me, the more that I appear.

by clarkpojo on Feb 25, 2009 10:48 PM CST up reply actions  

Well you are right that Williams has been a bit ignored this season..

Because of his early injury and because of the Jazz’s slow start… and his resurgence hasn’t been documented too much. That is unfortunate… I love Williams’ game personally.

However I also think its a bit unfair to chalk up the statistical differences between Paul and Williams to “system.” If we can’t compare Paul and Williams through stats… then we can’t compare any players through stats unless the players play in the same system… and I don’t think that’s what you are saying. Now, “system” and teamates are definitely factors to keep in mind when looking at stats.. and that’s probably all you are getting at. But I think the statistical differences between the two players is too large to be chalked up to system alone.

by Caleb462 on Feb 25, 2009 4:42 PM CST reply actions  

I think this is a case

of looking at the wrong stats. If you look at ppg, or other raw stats, Duhon, Harrington, and Marion look like they have inflated stats with their respective “inflationary” systems (ie Phoenix or NYK). I’ve been running a series here on @tH, basically explaining which stats are more conducive to team wins, and why. If we take a look at any number of those, Duhon in NYK performed pretty much just the same as Duhon not in NYK. Ditto for Harrington. Marion pre-Nash performed very, very similarly to Marion with Nash.

The point is, ‘system’ can inflate stats like points per game, assists per game, or any other box score stat you can think of. But there is no system in the NBA which can significantly and artificially boost individual player’s efficiency statistics…… Well if there was, that coach would be some kind of uber savant genius.

Or steroid vendor….

by Rohan on Feb 25, 2009 6:27 PM CST up reply actions  

And that's something that Dave Berri has touched on many times right?

A players production tends to stay about the same no matter the team, system, teammates. There are ups and downs… but there’s still a good deal of consistency in how a particularly player performs throughtout their career.

by Caleb462 on Feb 25, 2009 8:11 PM CST up reply actions  

Point proven.

If it is not “size” it is ‘system." Seriously, name one person who is both living outside of Utah and not a drug addict, who even thinks it’s close. Chris Paul is transcendant. Williams is just really good.

by m-W on Feb 25, 2009 6:22 PM CST reply actions  

DWill over CP3

It seems like there has been a great deal made recently about the Chris Paul vs. Deron Williams debate. Several writers recently have stated that clearly Paul is the better player, using purely stats to back up their opinion ignoring the more important results, that being wins. Some have even been stupid enough to compare Paul to Magic Johnson that borders on blasphemy in my house. In my opinion, that article, is one of the stupidest things I have ever read.

While it is true that Paul has superior statistical numbers, that really doesn’t tell the whole story. The first thing that I notice when I watch these two play is that their roles on their respective teams is extremely different. For this reason a comparison of stats is not very revealing. On the Hornets, the strategy is to let Paul make nearly every play. He has the ball in his hands nearly all of the time and he is expected to make nearly every play. With that being the case, he better have better numbers than a guy that relies on his teammates more, not only for scoring but also for passing and making plays.

When a single player has such a big role it is very simple; win the matchup and nearly always win the game, and also the opposite is true lose your the matchup and nearly always lose the game. The record of the Hornets vs. Jazz matchup with these two playing is clearly in favor of the Jazz. The reason being Williams winning the point guard matchup. – Advantage Williams

In the perfect PG, I want one that shows his ability to lead his team to wins. This year Williams took a team that had the most games missed due to injury in the entire NBA. Still when Boozer came back Williams had the Jazz only one win behind where Paul had the Hornets. In the most comparable season for Paul was two season ago, when the Hornets suffered through a lot of injuries, Paul was able to lead the Hornets to an amazing 39-43 record for fourth place in their division. – Advantage Williams

Stats are great, however stats with little success in the playoffs prove worthless. Once again Williams has the decided advantage in this over Paul; two seasons ago Williams led the Jazz to the conference finals, and last year gave the Lakers the biggest fight in the West. Ask any Jazz fan who they would love to get to matchup against in the playoffs and it will nearly be unanimous that the Hornets would be the ideal matchup. The reason for this is that nearly every other possible playoff team in the West has a player that scares them. The Hornets have no player that scares Jazz fans. Paul scares a lot of teams with lesser point guards, he does however not even threaten the Jazz. – Advantage Williams

Now this is only my opinion but I hope that I was able to explain the reasoning behind this opinion. I will take Williams over Paul everyday of the week. Williams in my opinion has the advantage at the PG position every time he steps on the floor. The way that Williams makes Paul look like a JV player nearly every time they play shows that this just isn’t the case with Paul. He may have the advantage nearly every night, however, when he plays against Williams he gets beat.

 The bottom line is this: Williams is a greater winner than Chris Paul and I will take the greater winner on my team every single time. Williams > Paul

by Fighting Penguin on Mar 17, 2009 12:10 PM CDT reply actions  

Quick Question:

Is there any matchup in the NBA where Deron Williams doesn’t win it head to head nearly every single time?

by Fighting Penguin on Mar 17, 2009 12:11 PM CDT reply actions  

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