At The Hive: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Sports blogs for fans, by fans.
Around SBN: Blogger Q&A - And The Valley Shook

General Madness

Here's a prediction: people are going to start talking about Jannero "the General" Pargo again. Between the struggles of the Hornets' bench, Pargo's potential return to America in the summer, and the General's brother getting some March Madness airtime (Zags are going to the championship game, book it)... lots of storylines involving the General right now.

But let's nip one of those stories in the bud before it ever gets started. Jannero Pargo's absence is not the reason for our struggles, because Antonio Daniels has been just as good, if not better.

Behold:

Danielspargo_medium

Daniels is far and away the better passer, somewhat offsetting Pargo's better handles. I slammed Pargo's horrendous floor percentages last year, and Daniels is just about equal. However, the difference is that Daniels gets to the foul line about 1.5 more times per 36 minutes. The result is obvious in Daniels' higher true shooting percentage.

There's a lot of blame to go around on the bench, but AD has been solid.

0 recs  |  Comment 9 comments |

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

I know you will dispute it.

But I think Pargo’s contributions were hard to quantify. Was he a clutch bench player? A loose cannon? I know he was erratic, but he also won us several games, something AD can’t say. Don’t get me wrong, I like AD; he’s solid. He’s the conservative pick, though. Less likely to list a game, but also less likely to spark a run. If all other thing were equal, money, cap, etc, Id rather have Pargo.

by m-W on Mar 19, 2009 3:59 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Haha, yeah I dispute it

It’s interesting if you look at the splits of his biggest scoring games: 18 in a loss to ORL which CP sat out, 24 in a blowout loss to Utah, 24 in a blowout win vs Portland (where our starters crushed theirs), 22 in a blowout win vs Atlanta (ditto), 19+ in three games against Phoenix where literally every Hornet destroyed the Suns’ “defense,” 18 in a blowout of the Sonic… and on and on. The Boston win and L.A. loss (by 3) stand out as exceptions, but even in that LA game, the Hornets were down by 30 at one point. Overall, it’s pretty clear that most of his stat-stuffing games were more stat padding in blowout wins or losses.

And even if I do concede that there are games where he contributed more than Daniels ever could (and I do concede that), it’s silly not to look at the flip side. Games where he went 1-9, 4-17, 2-11, etc. I’d much, much rather have a consistent 12 PER than a wildly fluctuating 11 PER, especially when the “good” side of the fluctuations tends to come in meaningless minutes.

In the end, I disagree that Pargo’s contributions were hard to quantify, mainly because I can’t think of anything he was doing that the stat sheet didn’t capture. With guys like Battier, there are clear things you can point to and say “the stat sheet definitely didn’t capture this!” With Pargo, what was he doing that wasn’t captured? He wasn’t that huge of a hustle guy. I’d contend that he hurt us tremendously on defense by forcing CP3 to guard shooting guards (even if he was a decent man defender). The one thing he did do was take a ton of charges, but Paul guarding SG’s certainly offset that.

by atthehive on Mar 19, 2009 4:54 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Interesting comparison. My first instinct was to say “that’s ridiculous, I’d much rather have Pargo than Daniels,” but given the facts you present, it’s hard to back that up.

I will say though that Byron was able to put Pargo and Paul on the floor at the same time, and that usually spelled trouble for defenses. Sure, we also struggled a little with our own defensive match-ups, but that small backcourt seemed to benefit us more often than not. This season Byron doesn’t have that luxury. You can’t put Daniels and Paul on the court at the same time and expect good things.

Also, the argument can be made that defenses viewed Pargo as a scoring threat and were hesitant to leave him open in case he’d catch fire. Pargo keeping his defender close like that is something that helped other guys on our team, whereas a defender can sag off Daniels to double team and not get burned all that often. Such an impact can’t really be measured statistically.

There might also be a case to be made for the way Pargo pushed the pace and how that may have helped other players on the team. I have no stats or anything to back that up. Just a theory that could well prove idiotic.

http://www.hornets247.com

by ndoherty13 on Mar 20, 2009 7:29 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Good points

My thing is that his floor spacing should at least have some inkling of effect on plus-minus, but there isn’t any. Doesn’t mean it didn’t exist though, so it’s a good theory. Def agree on the pace idea also. The bench is sickeningly slow this year.

by atthehive on Mar 21, 2009 3:30 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

One stat that seems too glaring to overlook. Minutes played. Right now, when Daniels can’t even get on the court in the 2nd half, his contribution is shrinking. Pargo deserved his minutes, and while the 2nd unit O relied on Pargo shooting more than passing, with AD the 2nd unit has devolved into a turnover prone group that seldom scores, which in turn provokes the other team to go at the jugular of the unit’s D resulting in blown leads.

Sure AD can massage his limited minutes into some statistical opportunities, mainly because he’s on such a short leash that he gets far fewer possessions than Pargo got. Chris Paul plays heavier minutes now, and he and AD very seldom play together.

If we were to tally Pargo’s 4th quarter minutes after the All-Star break, with his +/- during the same playoff push, and compare that to AD’s exact same contributions, the drop off in performance would be clear. Whether this lack of bench production damages the team in the playoffs is yet to be determined, but it feels that this year’s bench is less resourceful on offense, and that overall bench minutes are shrinking after the All-Star break at a worrisome clip.

by chefcdb on Mar 21, 2009 1:34 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Hmm

I tend to hold Daniels’ fewer minutes against Byron Scott more than against Daniels himself. Most of the stats show that the Pargo/Paul lineup wasn’t very good for the team (even if we did look better on offense) since it killed us on the defensive side (and tired out Paul).

Byron’s rotations have really puzzled me to no end this year… although it looks like Mo is finally back in the swing of things.

by atthehive on Mar 21, 2009 3:32 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Rotations and pacing

I have always liked AD, and I do think he has just enough gas in his career to help us. I believe the key to whether the Hornets develop a good bench happens when we decide what to do with Peja. I am worried that this fiasco with the 2nd unit is making AD press to succeed, and my pitch is that he gets more firepower to help him get his confidence back soon.

Habits would tell us Peja should return to the starting lineup. Our floor spacing has dropped for the starters, and from downtown, we’ve been dreadful lately. Yet most of the games during this ugly winning surge by the Hornets, the team has started games well. It’s the Achilles’ Heel of the 2nd unit coming out for the 2nd quarter that puts us, literally, on our heels the rest of the game.

Mo Pete can help the 2nd unit. He’s not as tough a defender as Devin Brown, but he has more polish offensively. Mo Pete is a reliable 3 pt shooter, and not quite the wrecking ball as is Brown when he drives. Mo Pete with Poz gives us options, and if we were to add Peja to the 2nd unit, we’d suddenly have a decent to above average bench.

The key then is does Peja send Juju back down to the 2nd unit? I think Julian benefits more from playing alongside CP than any other player besides Tyson. His athleticism helps us sustain/start the fast break, and Wright is a capable defender. I worry, since I live with someone who has a chronic bad back, that too much toll on Peja will neutralize his effectiveness. Maybe Coach limits him to a well-spaced floor with the 2nd unit, overlapping some time late in the games with CP, and Peja can play big and/or free the other guys (Mo, AD, Poz, Hilton or Marks) to get better looks. Put Juju with those guys and it tends to muddle things; however, that 2nd unit described with Peja is virtually an “Over the Hill Gang.”

Our whole team has played at such a bewildering slow pace, but the second unit struggles to get shots. Putting Peja with them will create opportunities; meanwhile, CP can keep his running partner in Juju to give us athleticism in the starting lineup.

I doubt it will happen that way, but I think we have to be careful for Peja and maximize his contributions with fewer minutes to have him around for the playoffs.

One last thing, I’ll add about Pargo. Some guys are volume shooters who are statistically less efficient, but they drive opponents nuts as often as they drive their own coaches crazy. Pargo filled his role, and we don’t have anybody else on the bench capable of getting their own shot now that he’s gone. So while Pargo’s D Bees might’ve given up more pts, his time on the floor also brought additional scoring. Now the bench problem is they bog down, so when they give up 8 pts it is suddenly a big deal because they’ve scored 2 or zero. Pargo’s Bees might give up 10, but get you from 8-12 and the game still has flow, not the basketball train wreck that we fear from the 2nd unit lately.

Mo Pete can help a lot, but maybe Peja added to the mix would be even better.

by chefcdb on Mar 21, 2009 9:01 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Agreed on Peja

I’d like to see him off the bench for a little bit, if only to maximize Julian (with CP) like you mentioned.

But I still don’t agree with: “Some guys are volume shooters who are statistically less efficient, but they drive opponents nuts as often as they drive their own coaches crazy.” When you produce 0.98 pts/possession, defenders will let you do whatever you want, on every play. There is a lot of value in individual shot creation, but what’s the point of being able to get off a shot when you have the worst true shooting in the entire NBA? Seems like it harms more than it helps.

by atthehive on Mar 21, 2009 10:10 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ballhogulating vs merciless quicksand

The key to what Pargo brought was scoring. Opponents didn’t fear him because, as you point out he was not efficient; however, he could burst into a groove and almost single-handedly expand a lead. Streaky shooters run hot & cold, and it was a surprise that Pargo was given such latitude as probably the weakest volume shooter in the NBA, but his energy shaved minutes for CP and balanced out Paul’s increased efforts on the defensive side when playing with JP.

You’ll recall our big problem last year were stagnant 3rd quarters, but now we live in fear and trembling (sorry Kierkkergard!) of awful 2nd quarters. Pargo had little to do with our 3rd quarter blues last year.

Now the AD led 2nd unit gives up 9 pt leads to the Grizzlies. Their turnover margin is high, and their poor play energizes the other team. CP plays tremendous minutes and he has no other ballhandler to play off, so his offensive load has skyrocketed.

Ultimately, I think the real tradeoff is between Pargo or Poz, as to the character of the team. With Posey, we bring a slower pace, more D moxie, some versatility with Poz guarding and playing 2, 3, or 4 as needed. With Pargo, the team was a more explosive offensively, and played at a higher rate — of course, last year’s team had far fewer injuries, especially to Tyson. Right now ugly, slower games are the best internal defense to Paul & West playing so many minutes, and (except for Rasual) our other scoring options are always questionable. In fact, if Hornets brass knew Butler would be playing so well, esp. on D, would they have gone another direction than Poz. We’ll never know….

I think the Hornets hoped Mike James would give the team some 2nd unit scoring and playmaking, a la Pargo, going into the year. When James imploded, the Daniels deal made sense. It’s probably still a better deal than having James make bad decisions to prove he should be starting in the league, but unless we can give the 2nd unit more horses (better scorers and willing rebounders) it’s hard not to wish we had a viable “get my own shot at anytime” scoring threat off the bench, whether Pargo or somebody else. I’d rather watch a streaky guy than watch the 2nd unit reenact falling into the LaBrea Tar Pit and looking hopelessly overmatched simply because a team can score 8 pts on them, which just shouldn’t be that big a deal.

So I think a ball hogging shooting guard who keeps the 2nd unit scoring is better than the quicksand we find the team in now, but as long as Chris Paul continues to dominate we can survive this year. But to win it all, we need more scoring options loaded up on the bench. There’s a reason guys like Odom, Ginobbli, Jason Terry, Maggette, and other legit scorers come off the bench nowadays, and I would like to see how Peja would do in that role for the Hornets.

by chefcdb on Mar 22, 2009 2:02 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to the SB Nation blog about Charlotte New Orleans Oklahoma City New Orleans Hornets
Start posting about the Hornets »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recent FanPosts

Small
If you really want a salary dump
Small
This team isn't playing to their potential
Small
Game 10: Portland v. New Orleans
Small
trade idea shenanigans
100_7475_small
Hornets - Knicks Photos
324_small
kevin martin to hornets idea?
Small
Would u be mad?
Small
Solutions!?
Chuck_norris_small
What the Hornets have to do to do better than an eighth seed
Small
CHRIS PAUL IS OVERRATED!!!!! HE IS NOT THAT GOOD!!!!!!

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >


Managers

Paul_small atthehive

West_head2_small Junsier

Editors

Hldomingue-nola_small hldomingue