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Hornets 75, Kings 71: What Was That?

A few times a season, a great team will play a game so painfully ugly that you momentarily forget why they're good at all. This was clearly one of those games. At the end of the day, I'm just happy we were able to pull a win out of it.

Star-divide

While the defense performed admirably against an above average Sacramento offense, the Hornets' offense struggled massively. Sacramento had played really poor defense coming into the game (only the Clippers and Suns were worse), but give them credit. Their post defense was incredible. Time and time again, they denied us easy layups and dunks. Samuel Dalembert and Donte Greene combined to block 7 shots, and they altered at least another seven. Until the final minute of the game, David West and Emeka Okafor combined to go 9 for 31 from the field.

The perimeter players weren't much better. Chris Paul missed five times as many shots as he made, Belinelli went 4-12 despite numerous hard takes to the hoop, and Willie Green... well, Bill gets his own section later. It's surprising that the Sacramento defense was able to take away perimeter shots while crowding the paint at the same time. Their rotations were that effective. Again, it's mostly unclear what got into them tonight (they came in with the third worst eFG% defense in the conference), but their defense was wildly effective.

West and Okafor

Through 12 games in the season, the Hornets have made a habit of finding both West and Okafor on the block. It's important to note that both players have functioned as the final step in various plays. Once they catch, it's up to them to get the shot up. Tonight, the shots they got up were swatted away left and right. Neither guy had been passing out of the post much thus far, and tonight Sacramento made us pay for it.

Okafor still had a solid game on the glass (including 5 offensive rebounds) and managed to involve himself in the game despite a terrible shooting night. David West, until that final minute, did not. He finished with just 4 rebounds. As critical as his final O-board was, we can't afford West disappearing on nights that his shot is off. Thankfully, he was able to stick the two big jumpers down the stretch.

Willie Green

Via Liberty Ballers, three tweets regarding Green's game tonight:

At The Hive

Looks like Willie Green has decided to do all his regression to the mean in a single game. Yay.

Zach Harper

I'm thoroughly convinced Willie Green is trying to get kicked off the team with play on the court. It's the only reasonable explanation.

Evan Dunlap

Is there a less compelling basketball player than Willie Green?

It's stunning how bad Green was tonight. He forced shots, he forced drives, he routinely lost defensive assignments, and he didn't even pretend to look for the open man. His only saving grace was how thoroughly awful everyone else was too. 

And this wasn't a blip in an otherwise good season. It was regression to the mean in what's been an otherwise anomalous season. Willie Green is a poor decision maker. He shoots 31% from outside of 16 feet, and yet 57% (!!!) of his shots come from outside that range. He chucked the ball wildly with Chris Paul on the floor tonight. When he gets the ball, he's taking over the possession no matter what. For a guy that produces 102 points/100 possessions (8th worst on the team), that's unacceptable. He never creates for others. Only Pondexter, Mbenga, and Okafor have lower assist rates. Jason Smith has a higher assist rate. That's right, the guy that literally shoots the ball every time he touches it. 

I can stomach Green on the floor if he accepted a more limited role in the offense. His defense has been valuable this year, even if it wasn't tonight. But right now, he's killing this team, killing Quincy Pondexter's development, and killing Marcus Thornton (who was fine defensively tonight). 

Final Notes

  • DeMarcus Cousins came up with the three point play down the stretch. But up till that point, he was a disaster every time he touched the ball. I don't know that there's a player with a wider range of career potential in the league right now.
  • Trevor Ariza came up huge. He was our only efficient offensive player with 16 points on 9 shots and he canned two huge triples. Slowly but surely, he's starting to move away from taking the open three, and he's starting to attack the rim. He still needs to finish better through contact, but I loved his game on both ends of the floor tonight. He was my player of the game.
  • Jason Smith beasted it again. 8 points, 7 rebounds, and 3 offensive rebounds against a very stout Kings front line. 
  • Both Tyreke Evans and Chris Paul finished with 9 points apiece (and each needed 12 shots to get there). Didn't see that one coming.
  • I really, really want to see Quincy get some minutes with Chris Paul. The second unit just seems to ignore him offensively. That's no surprise with Bill running the show, but with Thornton overeager to prove himself in limited minutes, Smith (understandably) ready to fire at a moment's notice, and Mbenga simply thrilled he didn't just fumble the ball out of bounds again, Pondexter is the odd man out in a circus full of fail.
  • That's now two mediocre games against two middling teams. In both games, it was really the offense that struggled. Our points total against the Cavs was inflated by a higher total possessions mark (97), but was still pretty bad. I'd call tomorrow's matchup against the woeful Clipper defense the magic elixir we seek, but that's essentially what Sacramento's defense was supposed to be. 

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Not sure that NOLA is a great team or just a decent team with a Great start

but you deserved to beat the Kings tonight. The Hornets were slightly better. The problem the Kings are having right now is that they can be a good offensive team or they can play D but they can’t do both at the same time. As the Kings start their rebuild the appearance of some D against a legit team was more welcome than a win, although a win would have been sweet.

Rohan – very nice stuff about Peja. He was always my favorite player when he was in Sac.

It’s the players job to keep the coach happy, not the coach’s job to keep the player happy. - Paul Westphal quoted from The Purple Panjandrum

by Bluejohn on Nov 21, 2010 9:19 PM CST reply actions  

Thanks, I appreciate that

I think we’re trying to figure out the great team/good team with hot start thing too. We’ll know more by the end of December I guess. I think our defense is legitimately stellar, but until the offense can consistently put it together, we won’t be an elite team.

But the Kings’ D was just really excellent tonight. CP3 was more passive than I would have liked, but Luther Head had something to do with that, and the job the Kings did on the interior against Oak and West was great.

by Rohan on Nov 21, 2010 9:28 PM CST up reply actions  

my favorite quote from your re-cap

“Pondexter is the odd man out in a circus full of fail.”

Pretty much summed up what I saw tonite…..hurry up Jack!!!!!!!!!!

by 3ptace on Nov 21, 2010 9:46 PM CST reply actions  

poor shooting -

a case of the Post Peja Blues?

Kidding but really, I’m sure the team wasn’t ecstatic to see him go either.

Anyway, earlier in the season (and in pre-season) there were a lot of fans happy to have Green but now we see an NBA player can’t run from his past (history of very bad basketball). I wonder if having Jack will allow/prompt Williams to redistribute Green’s poorly played minutes in the future. Maybe they’re showcasing him to sucker some team for a big. If so, he’s not helping the team in that area either …

Smith wasn’t all that great before this year either, let’s hope he doesn’t regress too (he’s younger so maybe this improved play will stay.

11-1 is awesome. I don’t want to doubt Williams but while the defense he installed and preaches is a big part of the reason for the record, I hope he’s not so stubborn as to play guys who hurt the team more than they help, simply because they play good defense …

Thanks. Good recap.

by unnamed on Nov 21, 2010 10:10 PM CST via mobile reply actions  

in defense of Green....

…there was no one else to run point when CP3 left the game , and I think that is where the problems start for him. Once Jack starts to run the point on the 2nd unit , hopefully Green will play better on offense.

by 3ptace on Nov 21, 2010 10:38 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

+1

That’s exactly what I’m thinking too – Green’s an off-guard, making a case for/against him based on assists is misconstruing his role, he’s a shooting guard by position

by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on Nov 21, 2010 10:43 PM CST up reply actions  

can't pretend

i know what is going on behid the scenes.
I do know that trades often get rid of players that do more than their stats show.
I hope Paja’s being around didn’t make the team feel secure and his loss dos the opposite.
Time will tell.

I do know Smith seems to offer some big guy range, I just don’t like him taking to many outside distant shots.

I truthfully am confortable with losses.
The pressure builds to much with long winning streaks…especially with younger, less mature teams. This team is not cohesive yet.
Believe me when I say this…the real chemistry is not there yet and will nt be until there is shared hardship.
This comes from losing, then building from the losses.

If anybody thinks this record truly reflects this team’s skill level, then they should back off the cool-aid.

Relax.
Take a breath…again…and allow the team and their young coach to grow.
Be happy with this….

by ppellico on Nov 21, 2010 11:45 PM CST up reply actions  

Yep
If anybody thinks this record truly reflects this team’s skill level, then they should back off the cool-aid.

It might reflect it, it might not. I don’t think we can definitely say that it doesn’t reflect the “true skill level” or that it does. I really liked Monty Williams quote after the game:

“I don’t even look at the standings. Looking at our record, it might be fools’ gold.”

by Rohan on Nov 22, 2010 12:19 AM CST up reply actions  

yes, yes...

I din’t mean to imply it doesn’t reflect a good team…it’s just that to me, it doesn’t mean either way.
This is sports.
Everynight you take the floor against men who are paid a great deal of money to stuff it in your fae.
And in reality, athletes today are very evenly skilled at this tip of the sports triangle.

And I have lived through some horrible swings in the sports gods.
They can leave the most skilled players humbled with a new found self doubt.
In baseball, the greatest hitters enter slups and some how fight their way out by late hours working on their skills.
Thinking about it i bed at night…over and over again, trying to solve the problem.

This basket ball team has yet to e tested.
NOT by good teams, by the NBA life itself.
The road.
The stress.
The competition.
Even the social interplay within a team itself can be scarring.

This is where real leadership on teams is vital. This is where veterens guide and mentor young players.

NOH will show up sometime around post holidays. By then we should see what the team has become.
AS well as the coach.
This is a whole ’nuther worry.

by ppellico on Nov 22, 2010 3:03 PM CST up reply actions  

forgive my spelling

i know how it bothers some on the sight…but i type as poorly as i spell.
i am lost w/o speelcheck!!!

i am old, you understand.

by ppellico on Nov 22, 2010 3:06 PM CST up reply actions  

sorry I missed the game...

or am I!?

I was at the LA Auto show and then a business dinner.
I was bothering people at the dinner about missing the game.
They were all LAL fans and full of themselves.

Then I come to the hotel and read this!

Wow.

by ppellico on Nov 21, 2010 10:31 PM CST reply actions  

the stats

show some awful percentages on shots/made …why?
What caused the missed hots????

by ppellico on Nov 21, 2010 10:32 PM CST reply actions  

I think

Sacramento did a fantastic job at post defense. So they denied West and Okafor some of the easier looks they’ve had this year.

Chris Paul was strangely passive for much of the game too.

Overall, I guess just an intersection between lackadaisical offensive aggressiveness, poor shooting, and the Kings’ post defense.

by Rohan on Nov 22, 2010 12:20 AM CST up reply actions  

A Respectful Defense of Willie Green

There’s a conspicuous uniqueness problem: The whole team was shooting poorly this game. And over the course of the season I don’t see his shooting too much being as cartoonishly lethal as it’s coming off as described by critics. He’s a shooting guard, not a distributor, comparing his assist rate seems extraneous to assessing his value as a 2nd-team off-guard. We’ve previously been saddled with Posey (FG 36%), Devin Brown (FG 39%), Bobby Brown (FG 39%), and if we gave guys making minus-40% of their cumulative shots regardless of floor-spotting big minutes, then I’d be on-board and agree that we’ve got a problem.

In Thornton’s defense, he had a good year, but (this argument hinges on whether or not you are compelled by CP3’s contention, key word being compelled, not emotionally turned-off, because I feel like alot of people making arguments for Thornton aren’t using premises like Rohan does rooted in statistics/sometimes are defaulting to simply cheering on Thornton because of the ray of hope he gave us last year in a tough, bad season) I feel like CP3’s argument has legs. Last year our defense was not good, and we were almost always trying to come back against defenses that played slack after running up a safe lead, virtually ensuring that Thornton (and even Collison based on whether you think his lack of production’s due to not gelling with the Pacer offense or not) could rack up sick, unusually efficient stats.

With Green’s objectively more reliable history over a lengthier sample coupled with his better defense and duties as an off-guard, I’m not bothered by him having a non-unique a bad shooting night as his floormates and/or shooting more than his peers on the floor, and feel like if it was a problem, Monty Williams would make a move. We’re 11-1, & I don’t think it’s despite Willie Green & think his defense plus all else that I’ve mentioned makes him a safer asset. Not to mention, alot may hinge on the maturity of Thornton’s response to Monty’s demand of him to play stouter defense for a team with a more conservative makeup/locker-room stuff we don’t know about – I think there’s a hint of it in that CP/our leader’s sided with the Monty line. That’s just my respectful & sincere 2-cents.

by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on Nov 21, 2010 10:40 PM CST reply actions  

Green needs to stick with....

….that floater he shoots , or the 15 foot rainbow J he takes coming off a screen….those are good shots for him IMO.

by 3ptace on Nov 21, 2010 11:59 PM CST up reply actions  

My take on those
And over the course of the season I don’t see his shooting too much being as cartoonishly lethal as it’s coming off as described by critics.

I agree that it’s not cartoonish, per se. But Green ranks 7th on the team in FG% and 3rd in field goals attempted/36 minutes. That’s a disparity I’d like to see corrected.

He’s a shooting guard, not a distributor, comparing his assist rate seems extraneous to assessing his value as a 2nd-team off-guard.

He’s a shooting guard, sure, but he dominates the ball. Even when we had Bayless, Monty Williams ran a lot of our offense through Green. And given how much he has the ball in his hands, he has a responsibility to make sure other guys are at least touching it. There was a period tonight where for seven straight possessions, two Hornets outside of Green touched the ball. That’s something I will criticize every time. Green is a shooting guard, but when a player controls the ball that much and doesn’t pass, it affects the offense of the other guys on the floor.

Re: The Thornton point

See, this is something I sort of agree with you on. I think some people may be automatically assuming that Thornton’s offense of last year will translate to this year. I think there are changes he will need to make. He needs to learn how to be efficient with a lowered usage, and I don’t take for granted that that will happen for sure. But I DO believe that Thornton’s last year is a good indicator that he CAN be a good, lower-usage, offensive player if he accepts a new offensive role. Statistically speaking, I think he’s way, way more likely to post efficient stats on 20% usage than Willie Green is. Hopefully when his defense issue is sorted out with Monty, he’ll have a chance to prove it.

With Green’s objectively more reliable history over a lengthier sample

Now this is something that I (and the stats) heartily disagree with.

Willie Green has a career 98 offensive rating on 22% usage. Any way you slice it, that’s terrible. It’s not “veteran” play, it’s not “steady,” it’s just straight up bad. This year, he’s at 102, which again, is not good at all. My point is that Thornton posted a 110 rating last year at 25% usage, and he’s statistically likely to outperform Green at 22%. It’s not the guarantee many think, but the odds are still way better than playing Green.

Additionally, while Green’s defense has been solid this year, I’ve talked to multiple Philly analysts that say his defense was below average with the Sixers. In that sense, I wouldn’t say he has an “objectively more reliable history” on the defensive end either.

A lot may hinge on the maturity of Thornton’s response to Monty’s demand of him to play stouter defense for a team with a more conservative makeup/locker-room stuff we don’t know about – I think there’s a hint of it in that CP/our leader’s sided with the Monty line.

Great point. Completely agree with this.

by Rohan on Nov 22, 2010 12:11 AM CST up reply actions  

Digesting, I'll respond agree/disagree later methinks, but all great counter-points

I just wanted to further convey, that by ‘cartoonishly lethal’, it could be interpreted as an ad hom, but that’s not how i mean it at all – it’s only to say that i don’t think that willie green represents damocles sword for the team

by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on Nov 22, 2010 12:55 AM CST up reply actions  

Y'all Know My Stance

I said it after the Cleveland game, and I’ll say it here: it doesn’t matter how you do it so long as you do it. They played awful. They looked awful. They sucked. They had no business winning. They still won. That’s all that matters is the W.

Of course, they can’t continue to flirt with disaster as they currently are but you have to have faith that will be righted. Tomorrow’s game against the Clippers is pretty huge, if for no other reason than because the team really needs to take advantage of the easy games on their schedule. After that, it’s at Utah, at Portland and a hugely important game at home against San Antonio (surprise, surprise, I’ll be back in Ponchatoula, LA, (my hometown) for Thanksgiving and got tickets to the game at the Arena before I drive back!) following, so it’s imperative the team finds a way to win that game against the Clippers.

I know you can’t be encouraged by their play, but you do have to be somewhat encouraged they can play so bad (especially Paul, West and Okafor) and still find a way to win.

"You play to win the game."

by MrWayneKeller on Nov 21, 2010 10:44 PM CST reply actions  

Winning Ugly is still winning.....

11-1 is still 11-1…..it is nice to be able to shoot the ball like sheet , and still grind out a win….lets just not try that against the Lakers please

by 3ptace on Nov 22, 2010 12:01 AM CST up reply actions  

this may have been mentioned already...

but does anyone know if the new guys will join the team tomorrow or will that be on Wednesday?

by sXe hXc AMF on Nov 21, 2010 11:02 PM CST reply actions  

From what I heard

They’ll join us Wednesday

by Rohan on Nov 22, 2010 12:16 AM CST up reply actions  

Jim Eichenhofer,

called/gave MBenga out 6th man award of the game….
Am I on earth?
Did the laws of nature change while I was away today?

by ppellico on Nov 21, 2010 11:54 PM CST reply actions  

Missed the game

Got home and watched it…boy was that gross. Our shooting was terrible. Need to improve, but defensively we were stout which was nice.

Still a lot of work to get done!

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by Grayson on Nov 22, 2010 12:48 AM CST reply actions  

Despite the ugliness

a few nice things still happened:

A) Good teams have ugly wins. When they aren’t on offensively, they are able to pull out an ugly win because the defense remains constant. Over the years, I can recall teams like Boston and San Antonio going on the road plenty of times and winning in the same manner. This directly goes to the argument on whether we’re an average/slightly above average team enjoying a hot start versus one of the NBA’s top teams in the league. Guess which way I’m leaning.

B) Trevor Ariza may be showing signs of coming out of his offensive slump. As Rohan correctly mentioned, attacking the basket is key and perhaps he’ll finally start connecting on some And-1’s (crazy he doesn’t get plenty of them with his skill-set). The biggest thing going forward with him appears to be decision-making whereby, whatever he does (shoots or drives), it’s done with a high degree of confidence.

C) Sticking with the gameplan. Our leaders, despite all their sub-performances continued to play like All-stars instead of deferring. I’m glad West and Okafor had a ton of attempts despite poor percentages for much of the game. When you’re shooting horribly, last thing you want to do is become perimeter orientated. I completely feel that there were also plenty of missed calls by the ref’s thus making the King’s defense look better than they actually performed. In the end, one of the stars did get hot – West – and really pulled out the victory after Ariza and others kept us in it.

by RedHopeful on Nov 22, 2010 8:35 AM CST reply actions  

rohan

in your opinion, and it means an awful lot to me, aaron gay’s opportunities on this team have just gotten slimmer.
They have picked up yet another big center with some outside capabilities.
He as well as smith add this to the team.
However, grays options now are sit or sit.
MBenga seems to have the coache’s eye, although this is without logic.
your thoughts…

by ppellico on Nov 22, 2010 4:15 PM CST reply actions  

he is the next trade

in my humble opinion.
there are just to many teams sitting out there today with losses of their centers or aready were lacking in this department.
they should trade him.

by ppellico on Nov 22, 2010 4:17 PM CST reply actions  

i predict...

mark this old man’s words…Gray will be traded.
Miami is in dire need of inside help.
Portland…the list goes on.
Immediate help is needed inside by all these and many more teams.
Gray does not fit coaches game style.
They will move him.

by ppellico on Nov 22, 2010 4:35 PM CST reply actions  

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