This Isn't New, But It's News
A couple little bits of news via ESPN Insider (aka via the Times Picayune).
Marcus Thornton had a terrific rookie season last year for the Hornets. He should be the starting shooting guard this upcoming season, but head coach Monty Williams may go with newcomer Marco Belinelli.
"To me, it's about fit," Williams tells The Times-Picayune. "What guy fits best with that starting unit. Do we need more shooting or more slashers and athleticism? The challenge for Marcus is not to rest on what he did last year but learn to become a consistent professional.
Trevor Ariza could start at shooting guard if Williams chooses to start Peja Stojakovic at small forward. Stojakovic has a bad back and it may be best to start him while his back is warmed up.
And re: the rest of the summer:
"My gut feeling is that we are not done yet," Williams told The Times-Picayune. "Dell and I share information on both sides. I talk to him about players and he talks to me about things we can do. Maybe that's one of the reasons why we work so well together.
Demps could trade Peja Stojakovic ($14.25 million) or Darius Songaila ($4.81 million), as they both have expiring contracts.
I'm still not convinced that viable trade partners are out there, or that we should put too much stock in this quote. Either way, it's nice to see the words "Hornets" in an ESPN story. Been a while.
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Since the time we landed Ariza
I assumed the Hornets would move Thornton into the 6th man role. Ariza alongside Peja makes plenty of sense. First, size at the SG won’t be an issue against other starters. Two, Peja as an older player with a balky back would likely be better at the start of the game than coming into it after sitting on the bench “cold.” Three, most good teams have a great spark off the bench. Lastly, if we don’t find a good backup PG, perhaps Thornton/Belinelli on the floor together could handle initiating the offense.
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Peja still has back issues and should start, paired with the better defensive 2 (Thornton) to keep the defense honest. Bellinelli is a terrific shooter who needs to be with Ariza to offset his guarding deficiencies. I think the Hornets will go based on matchups. It’s just nice to be able to say we finally have scoring options at the two guard.
News!
We’re all desperate for information on the team honestly. A couple of responses from the press releases.
First of all, I’ve never been a big fan on the importance of a sixth man role because I find it a bit overrated. I understand that it’s to give the second unit a boost, but I found who finishes the game more important than who starts it. I don’t think the team needs to move Thornton to the bench in favor of Belinelli and if they do, it’s only to play Belinelli 15-20 minutes and Thornton will still dominate the second half. So what’s the significance? I’m old school, but I say just give your best players the best minutes and go from there. Although, Thornton proved that he can create his shot on his own which is something that may be needed among the back ups, unless they plan on playing Chris Paul 48 minutes a game.
Secondly, I expect the team to go into the season with the current lineup. I don’t want them to move Peja for another big contract even if it does mean an immediate upgrade. You need to think long term because the Hornets have a lot of young talent and they can really do themselves well by making great use of the expirings. If you don’t get a reasonable offer, you don’t have to move them just to make a move.
I’ve been talking trash to all of my friends here in San Antonio about the division championship and I’m pumped for the season to start.
"You play to win the game."
Why Peja shouldn't start
I love Peja when his shot is falling and the big Peja heads fill the arena. He is still a viable though overpriced member of the roster.
He should not start because:
1) The most productive wing players should start and get the most minutes. Ariza’s WP48 of .110 last year and .196 in 09 means he is the most productive wing player and of course will start. Thornton’s WP48 of .092 is better than the .022 WP48 for Peja last year and close to Peja’s recent best of .098 in 2008.
2) The Hornet’s want to quicken the tempo and get easy baskets.
3) The Hornet’s want to improve perimeter defense. Peja does give effort and will be more effective defending against second team wings. Thornton looked good playing passing lane’s during summer league.
4) Hornet’s and Chris need someone who can push the ball when team’s try to slow down Chris by pressuring him to keep the ball out of his hands in transition. Thornton is easily able to push the ball up the court, while this is not one of Ariza’s strengths and don’t even think about Peja in this role.
5) Peja as a starter at best will be a 4th scoring option behind CP3, David and Ariza. That’s giving up a lot defensively and athletically for a 4th option.
Mostly agree
But I disagree with point #4. Peja’s three point shooting was one of the Hornets’ most effective fast break tools in 2007-2008. He gets to the wings really quickly off of rebounds, and Chris Paul usually penetrates before kicking it out to him there. In my mind, a healthy Peja is one of the few shooters in the league that is really, really useful to have on the break.
Yes but
I wasn’t referring to Peja’s shooting, it was a big part of the 08 up tempo play. But in the last two years teams stopped running back and instead jumped Chris and denied the outlet pass. Anyone else getting the pass would walk the ball up the floor, except for Devin Brown who would turn it into a one man break and turnover.
Mostly what happened was Chris would have to come back to get the ball therefore no break and no opportunity for a trailing Peja to get a shot. It’s one of the main reasons why we so quickly became a half court team rather than the up tempo team of 08, and why we went small with Chris at the two so often.
My argument in point #4 was against Ariza starting at the two.
No problem
If I hadn’t said it before, great blog! Easily the most informative Hornet’s site.
good points
Good points nola2010.
I’d quibble with nr. 5 however. If Peja is on the floor, he has to be at minimum the 3rd option.
There’s no reason to play Peja is he’s going to be a 4th or 5th option, since Peja isn’t exactly Dennis Rodman on defense, rebounding or other aspects fo the game.
We can’t have Ariza as a preferred option to Peja. Ariza doesn’t shoot the ball great and is generally a mediocre offenisve player for a wing guy.
He’s developed his outside shot, but at 33% from 3rs, he’s overrated as an outside shooter.
As for who starts/plays, I posted below about that. Nevertheless, I wouldn’t strongly disagree with any of the other points, they sound reasonable.
Cheers.
How I'd do it
PG: Paul/Shakur/Belinelli (in spot minutes)
SG: Belinelli/Thornton (Marcus as a 6th Man, yeah yeah, but like Rohan said in the post introducing our new personnel, Marco and Trevor have the potential to compliment each other quite well, allowing MT5 to be our “Jason Terry”)
SF: Ariza/Pondexter/Stojakovic (Much as we love him, Peja is not a part of this team’s future, and Q needs to be getting PT right away)
PF: West/Brackins/Songaila (Ditto for Darius & Craig)
C: Okafor/____/Gray (Barron?)
Closing Unit: Paul/Thornton/Ariza/West/Okafor
I'd Like
For Pondexter and Brackins to push Songaila and Stojakovic for minutes, but I don’t want it forced. We saw last year how much of a mistake it was to push Julian Wright even if he was undeserving/not ready. Let those guys earn the minutes.
Plus, let’s give Thornton better credit than calling him Jason Terry. He doesn’t run around like a little kid with his hands extended. When I see him, I don’t cringe. Terry always disappears in the playoffs. And Chris Paul has never done this to Thornton: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqMLtpaVwCo
"You play to win the game."
by MrWayneKeller on Sep 7, 2010 7:27 PM CDT up reply actions
Thornton vs. Terry
Thornton has some way to go before he can be compared to Terry.
Terry is a career 16ppg scorer over 11 NBA seasons. He has proven he is effective starting or coming off the bench. he can play backup pointguard.
He’s been to the playoffs numerous times and averaged 16.8 ppg there, around his career average. Not bad considering that games/defenses are tougher in the playoffs and hardly reason to call him a “disappearing” player, despite one bad playoff series agaisnt
Thornton had a tremendous first year offensively. But he doesn’t have the experience or PG ability that Terry does. He’s never been tested in the playoffs. His strong point is that he’s still young so he may continue to develop, but he’s not quite at Terry’s level yet.
As for Chris Paul putting the ball through Terry’s legs, that could happen to anyone. Anyway, MT was the featured SG on a team that was by all accounts horrible defensively last year. Not going to point the figer at MT, obviously, but not quite ready to sing his praises either.
Hopefully MT will have a career like Terry, but don’t think it can be concluded he’s there yet. just my thought.
Yeah
Terry has really disappeared the last three postseasons for Dallas. Career averages will tell you otherwise but actually watching the games you could see it.
Obviously my hate on Terry was meant to be a joke. Thornton hasn’t accomplished all that Terry has (although he has him matched in all star game appearances, championships, all nba team appearances, etc. lol) but I was merely poking fun at someone calling him our Jason Terry.
"You play to win the game."
by MrWayneKeller on Sep 8, 2010 10:27 AM CDT up reply actions
Agreed. Terry has disappeared
Season vs. Playoffs
2007
PER: 18.9 to 12.5
TS%: 59% to 51%
ORtg: 119 to 101
2009
PER: 19.3 to 12.0
TS%: 57% to 51%
ORtg: 115 to 103
2010
PER: 16.5 to 11.8
TS%: 55% to 50%
ORtg: 112 to 105
Agreed that the playoffs are much tougher, but that’s a precipitous drop. Terry was outstanding in 2008, but overall, that’s a terrible playoff record. I’d definitely consider him a disappearing player in general.
Not that Thornton = JET
Simply that he would play that role for us, of your classic 6th Man scorer that also frequently finishes out games with the starters.
As far as forcing the rookies into the rotation, I agree they should earn their minutes, but given the logjams at the 3 & 4 (especially with Lou likely headed down south), I don’t want them to get lost in the shuffle. They’ll need meaningful PT for their development, like Julian got his rookie season and like Collison/Thornton almost missed out on last year.
I do agree with the JET/Thornton comparison in general
Stylistically very similar, and the 6th man comparison would easily cross over too.
Goodness
I didn’t think anyone would take my post saying I didn’t want Thornton to be Jason Terry that serious. I was obviously just poking fun at Terry because I hate him.
"You play to win the game."
by MrWayneKeller on Sep 9, 2010 10:19 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah
I’ve picked up on it the past couple of seasons. I hate him and root for him to fail so better believe I notice when he does fail lol.
"You play to win the game."
by MrWayneKeller on Sep 9, 2010 11:06 PM CDT up reply actions
Indeed, I did recognize that
and I enjoy the notion that Marcus has already matched Terry in things like All-NBA, All Star appearances and Rings. Hell, from what Rohan has put together, it looks like Buckets might already be a better playoff performer than JET : ).
by Mr. Diamond on Sep 10, 2010 12:36 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
thoughts on starting 5 and rotation
I see our starting 5 as follows:
PG – CP
SG – Bellinelli
SF – Peja
PF: West
C: Okafur
After the first 8 or 9 minutes, we make substitutions:
Thornton for Bellinelli at shooting guard. Ariza for Peja at SF, his natural position. I like Thornton off the bench because he makes few mistakes/turnovers, which is good for a bench player (assuming of course he continues to develop). Bellinelli doesn’t turn the ball over, but his offense is a bit inconsistent. I like going with Ariza later in the game because I like to finish with stronger defense. I don’t think Ariza would mind so much playing off the bench if he is given good minutes overall.
Bellinelli to play about 15-20 mins during the game. Peja to play about 20 minutes. Peja’s efficiency is a question mark when given moer limited minutes, but I still believe Pja has some left in the tank.
Thornton to play 28-33 mins. Ariza to play 28-33 mins. Both players would come off the bench.
CP to play around 38 minutes. Remainig 10 minutes will go to Mustafa dude, if he can handle them, or new guy if he comes by trade (in which case we’d likely be minus one of our rotation players). Don’t believe that giving either Bellinelli and/or Thornton minutes at backup point guard is a good idea, though they could occasionally bring the ball up for a possession or two or in the pinch. Neither have shown that they are backup point guards, though their dribbling and passing abilities are fair enough. Giving them backup point responsibilities would likely eat into their efficiency.
Songalia backups up West and Okafur, playing around 20 minutes.
Gray to backup Okafur, depending on situations. Playing around 10 minutes (if he earns them).
We play the rooks mainly if and when injuries deplete the roster, which they will at some point inevitably do, or in special situations (like if we need a long bomb at the end of a quarter, we can sub in Brackins). I think Poindexter may be ready to contribute, but our 3 spot, probably his natural position, is pretty crowded. He may be able to backup West, some at PF. I’m not holding out a lot of hope for Brackins being a contributor early on. We’ll just have to see how and if he develops.
The above assumes that CP stays, whcih I think is a big question mark for various reasons.
by MZURK on Sep 8, 2010 3:25 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Ariza
I should also add:
I’m not keen on playing Ariza at 2 on offense, though he can be assigned to guard some 2s on defense.
The above analysis assumes:
1. Mustafa can handle playing backup PG for 10 mins/game OR we trade/sign another PG.
2. Ariza has no problem with coming off the bench. It shouldn’t be an issue considering his playing career.
3. Peja’s efficiency doesn’t crater if he plays more limited role. Don’t think we can do a lot if his efficiency falls through the floor, coz we’re not goign to start playing him 35 mins a game… but it is a risk.
thx
I would be terrified
of the defense in the 1st 8-9 minutes with Belly/Peja on the wings. And I’d ideally want to maximize Ariza’s time with Chris Paul too.
Completely Agree
Where did all this talk regarding Belli starting originate? I don’t think there is a snowballs chance in hell of this happening as he’s even failed to crack the regular rotation with prior teams. It’s gonna be either Trevor/Peja or Marcus/Trevor…
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I'm hoping for Marcus/Trevor
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by OnPointLikeCP3 on Sep 10, 2010 12:46 PM CDT up reply actions
How much playing time
are people thinking Peja’s going to get? I kind of thought the whole point of acquiring Trevor and Q (and ditching Julian and Posey, though the latter also had a bad contract) was to transition Peja into more of a spot minutes player, given his age and health.
Bellinelli
He’s only played 3 seasons in the NBA and his minutes have increased each season. He only had trouble getting consistent playing time in his inaugural season, and a lot of people blamed Nelson and crowded wings in GS for that first year.
Marco turned 24 in March. He’ll have a fine career ahead of him (MT is only a year younger).
In any case, I don’t think it’s so improant who starts, but who plays the most and who fiishes the game. Because I agree that MT is a better prospect, that’s why I suggested giving Marco 15-20 mins and MT 28-33.
Marco still needs to play. Marco’s true position is SG. Trevor was miserable playing SG in Houston until they got Martin and Trevor was switched to SF and out of sight on offense. Trevor literally couldn’t hit the broad side of a barn as a SG, going 38% FGs, 31% 3s and 65% FTs in 52 starts at SG. He shot 7% better both FGs and 3s when switched to SF. As for Peja playing SG… …
We have two natural SGs, MT and Marco, and those are the players I’d like to see playing there. I favor starting Marco over MT, because MT has proven that he can score well on or off the bench, with or without CP. I favor playing MT longer than Marco, because MT has shown a bit more promise at this stage.
and...
Marco is also one of the few players who actually seems to play MUCH better on the road than at home. Check his stats, not only for Toronto last season, but also for GS previous seasons. And road was a big weakness for Hornets last year.
I have a good feeling about Marco actually and hope he gets a fair shot at NO.
point
Point taken about the start of game defense. But I think it’s more important how we finish the game, rather than how we start, and I’d like to have our best defenders on the court at the end of the half/end fo the game.
Regarding Ariza, I think he’s a mediocre player on offense (though certainly a solid/good player overall). It would certainly help him to play with CP as much as possible, his efficiency would improve. But I’d prefer to maximize our best offensive players’ time with CP, rather than our mediocre ones. When CP kicks it out to the wing for jumper, I want the receiver of that to be Peja or Bellinelli, rather than Ariza.
Thornton has already shown he plays just fine without CP and can even take on a heavier scoring role in CP’s absence, so he’s fine to play as a sub off the bench—if he continues to develop, he could even be a candidate for 6th man of the year. I think pairing him off the bench with Ariza would be a good mix of offense/defense, with Ariza likely being the 3rd or 4th option after MT, West, perhaps Okafur.
If we now have F/C Lou Amundson, he would likely be first guy off the bench to sub in for Okafur. That would give us the luxury of subbing in Gray in special situations and if he earns his minutes. It would also avoid having to use Songalia as the backup center.
Our lineup/rotiation will unfortunately be geared towards small ball again—in many games, Okafur may be the biggest player we put on the court. Not a thrilling prospect. But hopefully Ariza and Amundson will give us a tougher look on defense than last year.
By the way, nobody has said anything about him, but is Ike Diogu still under contract for this season? He was a washout due to injury last year, but it’s still too early to give up on the young man’s career just yet.
Diogu's A Free Agent
He was only signed for a year at the minimum. Always thought he was going to be so good. I really did. I remember he was part of that Stephen Jackson from Indiana to Golden State deal and I told everyone that Diogu was the jewel of that trade. He just never could put it all together. He was in a position to succeed last season and it’s a shame he got injured.
But nobody’s offered him a deal yet so who knows if he’s even healthy.
"You play to win the game."
by MrWayneKeller on Sep 10, 2010 10:10 AM CDT up reply actions
thx
Thanks. Yeah, I have to confess I also had some hope for him last season. I think he would have given us some better front court depth at the least and made us rely less on Armstrong off the bench. Even thought there was some slim chance he could finally break out playing with CP.
Oh well… I wish him all the best. Hopefully he’ll find a roster spot soon.

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