Chris Paul Trade: Lakers Deal Falls Apart, Clippers Re-Enter Picture
by Rohan on Dec 11, 2011 2:42 AM CST
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PrintAccording to a report from ESPN tonight, the Los Angeles Lakers have pulled out of trade talks that would have attempted to restructure the original trade vetoed by the NBA that would have sent Chris Paul to the Lakers, Pau Gasol to the Houston Rockets, and Lamar Odom, Luis Scola, Kevin Martin, Goran Dragic, and the New York Knicks' 2012 first round pick to New Orleans Hornets.
Throughout the day Saturday, the three teams trade proposals back and forth. At various points, the proposed changes to the original deal ranged from the extremely minimal (Lakers' 2nd round pick Derrick Caracter heading to the Hornets) to the less minimal (the Lakers pursuing an external first round pick to send the Hornets) to the potentially impactful (Houston sending one or multiple of Patrick Patterson, Chase Budinger, or Jordan Hill to New Orleans) to the outlandish (Los Angeles trading Pau Gasol to the Warriors and rerouting Stephen Curry to the Hornets). It's unclear which of the options was last to be on the table, though most reports indicated that the newly submitted deal to the NBA leaned towards minimal changes at best.
The Lakers eventually pulled the plug, opting to send Lamar Odom to the Dallas Mavericks for a trade exception; Dallas had acquired this exception in the sign-and-trade of Tyson Chandler to New York mere hours earlier. It appears that Los Angeles will shift its attention towards Orlando's Dwight Howard now, although the trade of Odom doesn't put them in a better position to acquire the bloated deal of Hedo Turkoglu either.
Sam Amick reports that the Lakers pulled out of the deal because "the new price was too high." Considering the dearth of young talent on the Lakers, this could (almost) only imply that Andrew Bynum was part of the new iteration of the trade.
In the end, this could work out very well for the Hornets. The original Lakers trade would have been a poor long term deal for the Hornets; the players returning to New Orleans were all decently talented, and it's likely the Hornets would have challenged for a playoff spot this season. It seems paradoxical, but making the playoffs this year would be a terrible outcome. A Martin-Odom-Scola core would have no potential for growth whatsoever, and the Hornets would be missing out on the best and deepest draft class since 2004. In the NBA, being "moderately" good in a small market is the most damning of fates for a franchise; it precludes the opportunity for a superstar via the draft without ever providing a legitimate chance at being a contender either. The Hornets now happily avoid that future, even if 2011-2012 might be a less successful year in the win column.
Re-entering trade negotiations are the Los Angeles Clippers, expected to offer one of Eric Gordon or Minnesota's unprotected 2012 pick, in addition to the expiring deal of Chris Kaman (still only 29, for what it's worth) and possibly Al-Farouq Aminu or Eric Bledsoe. It's unclear whether the Warriors will also resume talks; the Hornets' top target in trade talks is Stephen Curry, but Golden State has made it clear they won't include him without a Paul extension, and Paul has made it clear he won't extend anywhere but New York or the Lakers.
Finally, there's speculation that the Boston Celtics, who are yet to finalize the deal for David West, could get back in the race and make a megadeal involving Paul and West and, presumably, Rajon Rondo, who has been dangled in all previous offers.
A big day today - one that could decide the future of this franchise.
Go Hornets.
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screwed
Totally screwed by the NBA. The propoposed deal was easily the best offer on the horizon. One of NBA’s top scorers in his prime along with two 18ppg/10rpg guys with plenty of playoff experience. Not to mention a solid backup point guard.
That in and of itself would have been fine, but we also would have gotten next year’s 1st round pick from a NY team led by players who have a history of missing the playoffs or leading their teams to subpar results.
Now, it looks like our best deal may be with the Clippers. Only problem is that, that deal probably will no longer include DeAndre Jordan who is set to sign a $10 million per year with GSW. We get just as old and a lot more injured than the Lakers deal players Chris Kayman, questionable Aminu and at least a solid backup point guard Bledsoe. Lucky us!
And unlike the Lakers deal, there’s no draft picks mentioned in Clippers deal, so forget about participating in next year’s “promising” draft. A Gordon led team this year may be mediocre, but not bottom of the barrel, so there’s not much chance we’d be picking in top 4 spots and we won’t have NY’s pick.
The worst part about it is the Lakers deal was ready to go and would have guaranteed a clean training camp start for our new team. Instead, we’ll be reading quotes by CP for the near future about how nostalgic he is about NO and all the good times and how he STILL is a Hornet… which may extend to the start of the season.
The longer the CP situation gets unresolved, the longer this season gets messed up. Also, because of this situation, teams will be shying away from dealing with NO, which may be the worst aspect of it yet.
I blame the NBA in part and CP in part. No doubt, with CP attaching all these inherent “conditions” to the trade (“I won’t re-sign here, here, there, there or over there”), Stern felt like he had to respond.
If I were Demps, I’d immediately resign.
Disagree completely
New York is a solid team this year with Tyson Chandler. Add in one more midlevel guy; they’re in a weak Eastern conference, they don’t play nearly as many Western teams this year, and they’re almost definitely getting out of the top 15 in picks.
I don’t disagree that the players we’re getting back are good. That’s actually my entire point. Those players would make us a 6-7 seed in the Western Conference, and totally take us out of the running in a draft we absolutely have to be in. In the NBA, the only way you win a Finals is if you have a superstar (or are the Dallas Mavericks and can afford to spend $90+ M year after year). We’re losing a superstar this week, and we have the perfect opportunity to get another one. Will we get one for sure? No way. But I’d take the shot at one (especially if we can position ourselves to have multiple lottery picks next year) over a Dragic/Martin/Ariza/Scola/Okafor team that will win 45 games for the next two years, flame out, and leave us wishing we’d have struck in the 2012 draft.
Another thing you’re missing is that Scola’s contract is awful. He’s 31 years old and is potentially guaranteed $40M until age 35. The final year is performance based, but that’s a terrible long term contract for a rebuilding team to take on.
Re: the Clippers’ deal, you’re misrepresenting it entirely. I don’t like Aminu or Bledsoe either. The whole point is that Gordon and/or the pick may be back on the table. Whether either comes to fruition remains to be seen, but both are exceptional pieces for the long term future of the franchise (not just the next 1-2 years, which is what the Houston deal gets us), and long term future of this team and of NOLA is what we need to be thinking.
Finally, I don’t particularly care how many Chris Paul quotes we have to live through if we end up with a deal with the Clippers or Warriors. You’ll recall that with Denver last year, the Melo drama got worse and worse as the season progressed to unbearable levels, but ultimately his return price also got more and more valuable.
I do agree that the NBA nixing the initial deal could cause teams to shy away from dealing with us. That’s terrible, and I don’t agree with Stern’s decision. But I hated the original deal, and if we get Gordon/2012 Minnesota pick/Curry/Rondo, it’s all moot.
by Rohan on Dec 11, 2011 4:14 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
I absoluteyl agree. It was like a huge weight was lifted when I saw that the deal wont happen. The last I really was enjoying the team was when buckets and darren played a lot. CPs era will always be tinged a little, because of all the surrounding stuff.
I really want young guys with upside to cheer for, knowing they give it their all and probably restart with next years draft.
If we got Steph or Gordon that would just be gravy.
by berlinhornets on Dec 11, 2011 5:00 AM CST up reply actions
I am higher on Aminu than others are
…I would be satisfied if we got Kamen, Aminu and the unprotected pick..I would also look at moving Ariza.
The NBA however needs to decide. There are a lot of fans not that deep into the minutiae (no matter how important the minutiae is) who are losing interest in the franchise.
"I have had a perfectly wonderful evening, but this wasn't it." Groucho Marx
by BenDerDonDat on Dec 11, 2011 6:35 AM CST up reply actions
you want to participate in next year's draft?
Well, let’s assume that the whole point is to participate in 2012 draft.
Problem is, how does the Clipeprs deal help us to participate in next year’s draft when it doesn’t even include a single draft pick in next year’s or any other draft. In fact, with the proposed Clippers trade, we’ll be participating in LAST YEAR’s mediocre draft by way of Aminu and Bledsoe.
And according to some sources, Gordon isn’t even part of any deal.
http://tinyurl.com/http-espn-go-com-los-angeles
So I’m not sure I follow you that you’ll be happy if we end up with a deal with the Clippers.
It seems that (a) there is no concrete Clippers deal on the table (b) Clippers are not sure whether they want to include Gordon in the deal © Clippers are in no rush or urgency to deal with NO (d) Clippers have not offered any draft pciks in 2012 draft.
But other than that, yes, I’m sure the Clippers deal is much better than the Lakers deal and sets us up much better for the 2012 draft…
hopefully
Hopefully some deal will emerge from the Clippers or hopefully some deal from another team will emerge which will be good. Hopefully, if this takes a long time then the CP team we currently have will be good enough to be in the playoff hunt by the time we do get the players in re turn for him. Hopefully, if it takes a long time, it will play out like the Denver situation last year where, as painful as it was, eventually they got a good deal in return. But it’s all speculation. All we can do now, is keep our fingers crossed and hope that the wait for whatever it is, will be worth it.
It's a retrospective thing
Original reports had a pick coming back to us (not the Minnesota pick, nor Gordon), and Demps needed to continue negotiating with them and get one of those on the table. Given how many teams were interested at the time, it wasn’t an outlandish notion in the slightest.
By agreeing to the Lakers deal, and with Stern coming in and squashing the proposal, the Hornets have lost all leverage here, and the Clips are lowballing us. I’m not arguing that Stern nixing the deal was this awesome, awesome thing. I mention this in the post as well.
And if you could cut the passive aggressive sarcasm, that would be great too. We’re all on the same team here so the random mockery is unnecessary imo. But whatever, feel free to keep using it, that’s just my request.
no offense intended
No offense intended Rohan. We’re talking about dealing away the face of the franchise so the arguments are getting heated, but no personal offense was intended.
Cheers.
I think you're wrong about one thing Rohan
While to you, the point may be to win a championship, to the development of a fanbase having consistently good teams is better than sucking for a while just for a chance to get a ring. That’s what we need to think about primarily or Stern will just move the team. I want our fans to have something to see each and every year so they will keep coming back and make the Hornets a permanent part of New Orleans.
Agree with this point 100%
If Demps felt pressured by this to take the Lakers deal, I don’t blame him one bit.
There are fans that just want to see good basketball, and I’ll be the first to say we should respect that for sure.
also
One further thing to note is that, I’m not even saying that we’d have to keep and resign all the three players. Merely being competitive and a playoff team this coming season with those players would probably just be the worst case scenario. All of the three players are plenty valuable and we could possibly flip them in the future. Hell, Lakers just turned Odom into 2012 draft picks and a trade exception and we could do at least as well with just that one player, still leaving Scola and Martin.
If merely keeping those players and being a competiitve 6/7 seed this year is the worst case scanario, thats hardly a bad situation to be in.
Scola’s contract, as I mentioned above, is awful. No rebuilding team is trading for $40M of a 31 year for a lottery pick.
You’ll also notice that the ESPN report indicated that the Lakers offered Odom to every team in the league under the cap (i.e., rebuilding teams) and nobody bit. Sure, they got a 1st round pick out of it, but what pick will it be? 25? 26? Even in a deep draft, that’s not much value.
And yeah, Martin likely has some value.
Rohan
The Eastern Conference is pretty much equal to the West now IMO (if not better depending on how this FA period turns out).
For all this Gordon love, why are we downplaying the situation he’d find himself in. I can envision him playing this season and hating how poorly we do while his old LAC squad takes another step. Then next season, we’re fretting about how likely he’s going to bolt once his contract is up.
East/West
Yep, there’s no way to say whether East or West will have the edge this season. There’s just too much flux and too many players moving from team to team. The West’s dominance is no longer a foregone conclusion. We’ll have to wait until the dust settles before we know.
NOt to mention
even the Mavs have a superstar by the name of Dirk…. (plus their 90M roster to complement him..)
And yes, completely agree that this trade falling apart was good for us Long-term. Nobody wants to be stuck as the perennial 7 seed with no potential for improvement
i already answered this point
Your point assumes that no team would be interested in acquiring Odom, Scola or Martin from NO and that NO would just sit idly by and do nothing ever again and just wait until those three wither into old age.
Of course, we could further trade. Lakers just swapped Odom for a trade exception and 2012 draft picks. Why would you assume that we couldn’t do the same if we wanted to?
heh .. a little ^^
It’s a littrle frustrating yeah.
Though a part of me also feels it’s a little understandable that people might get a bit emotional or irrational about these things since we’re talking about dealing away the face of the franchise.
How can anyone say this with any certainty
The now defunct trade would have brought in ASSETS. When you have those, you at least have a chance to make our desired future moves.
For the umpteenth time, it is obvious NOH has desired to get some valuable picks and young players. HASN’T HAPPENED up to this point. Why on earth should we suddenly be so sure it’ll happen in the future? We’re losing leverage by the day…
agree etc. etc.
I’m sure Demps would love to get 10 to 15 first round picks in next year’s draft. But that kind of deal hasn’t been offered.
We don’t even know whether Clippers will offer Gordon. It’s been mentionerd that they have Minnesota’s unprotected pick next year, but mentioning that fact in an article doesn’t mean that it’s ours to take. And even if we get it, there’s no guarantee that it’ll be the nr. 1 pick. Minnesota will be sucky this coming year (another example of a team that’s been trying to build through the draft), but who’s to say that they won’t surprise and it only ends up as the 7th or 9th pick etc. Even with the worst record, the chance of getting the nr. 1 is just a fraction.
Demps...
is one of the only people who truly knows what was offered to the hornets during the Paul frenzy, and I think it was a good move to try and move him at the beginning of free agency. Such a move allows the organization to move forward with the least amount of distractions and allows us to attract free agents here. Yes it was a game, but I think dell did the right thing trying to move quickly even if it didn’t work out.
by Downtowndave78 on Dec 11, 2011 2:23 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Chris
has never actually asked for a trade, he simply stated that at this time he was not going to sign an extension to stay with the Hornets. So all of the conditions that he put on where he will go or not go have no bearing on the Hornets decisions. If a team, like Boston, is willing to trade for him knowing he will not stay then the Hornets should make the trade.
as I've stated
In response to some of your post, that trade does nothing for our team. That’s not a championship team, but will be good enough to take us out of lottery draft picks. We will squeak in the playoffs for the next 3 years, all the while not gaining any good drafts picks. This leaves us in the same scenario we are now, gettin the 18th pick or so, ending up with guys who can’t contribute, and we are not a championship team.
by aburton531 on Dec 11, 2011 11:07 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
yep, but that's the worst case scenario
Being a playoff all-so ran is the worst case and it assumes that we keep those players and never ever make any further moves.
Meanwhile, Lakers just turned Odom into draft picks in 2012 draft, and we could have easily done the same, while still having the other 2 core players from the Lakers deal AND NY’s first round 2012 pick AND our own 2012 pick.
At this point
I’m just hoping to get any value for CP3 at this point. Hopefully a young guy or two with some potential and a first rounder.
I’m kinda glad the LA deal fell through because we were taking on two guys over 30 with high, long contracts, and the deal would’ve put us right at the cap with no young potential on the roster.
Plus LA was unloading tons of cap space while they acquire the best PG in the game. smh.
I’m just looking for this business to be done with, but yet we’d still like some value outta this.
On another note, I think we need to possibly include Ariza or Okafor in a deal because their contracts sicken me. Especially Okafor. (If we cant trade maybe use the waive clause on one of em?)
Go Hornets (I live in Denver, lol)
Another thing I forgot lol
We have one of the smallest rosters in the league and the season starts in like two weeks… another reason why we need to get this deal done so any new players have time to work with each other as a team.
Demps had a deal
Demps had a good deal on the table. Unfortunately, we don’t know what if anything we have now after this.
Why
do we have to get this deal done ASAP? What is the rush? This season is lost anyways why can’t we just take our time to get the best Cp3 deal possible instead of having a deadline. What happens when you negotiate on a deadline? The other side has an advantage because they know you’re DESPERATE. And you wind up being shafted like we would have if the LAL deal had gone through.
Who cares how toxic the locker room is this season or how “disgruntled” CP3 is. That’s not our concern. Our concern is rebuilding for the FUTURE.
Deals CAN be made anytime during the season, until the Trade Deadline .. I hope everyone realizes this. There is no reason to panic. We bide our time and look like we’re willing to let Cp3 walk for nothing (which, wouldn’t be the worst scenario) and try to get a deal where we get Youth and Picks.
I also don’t get all teh people who just assume if we got odom/scola/martin that we’d hav ea series of deals lined up and ready for them. Has anyone looked at scola’s contract? There’s also a reason martin has been given up on by his past two teams. And yes LA just flipped odom for a trade exception. But the point is, the same reasons those guys are unattractive to us long term will make them unattractive to any Potential trade suitors as well. And in the meantime while they’re on our roster we’ll be just Not-Crappy enough to play ourselves OUT of the lottery.
LOL
come on man. you don’t realize the effect of bringing this down to the deadline nor how a disgruntled CP3 would hurt? It’s leverage. As we get backed into a corner (where every other team knows NOH will be forced to take a lousier deal so that they don’t completely lose CP3 for nothing), we’ll have less and less room to negotiate. Combine that with a disgruntled CP3 who is either saying/looking the negative thing or simply showing from his drop in production would further decrease the value of potential return.
Then
let him be disgruntled. If you ask me, the “worst case” scenario of him walking for Nothing isn’t so bad for us. It’ll prolong the rebuild but at least it doesn’t saddle is with so -called “assets” that will actually hurt us even more.
You talk about leverage but how much leverage do we have when everyone knows we’re on a TIMETABLE for a trade? We’re backing our selves into a corner.
Make it known that you’re ok with CP3 walking for nothing after this year and then see what offers you get. You don’t think anyone will get desperate come trade deadline time for a CP3 playoff rental and hope they can convince him to stay?
And barring that he walks, let him. We field a roster of D league retreads like the Cavs did this year, lose a lot, and rebuild.
I understand this is not an Attractive scenario, and that the fanbase in NOLA might bail on the team. I hope they don’t but this isn’t the right question.
The right question is, what other choice do we have?? So b/c we’re afraid of the team moving if we lose too much, we decide to handicap ourselves by only taking trades that will keep is moderately competitive in the short term. It’s a band-aid type of thinking. At some point it’s all going to go down anyways. You might as well do it now and pray that people will pay to watch promising YOUNG players … (lose).
If the team is forced to move during the rebuild, then thats inevitable and sucks but it won’t be stopped by clinging to 35 wins every year while drafting outside the lottery.
again
Again, assuming that we flipped Odom same way as Lakers flipped him, we’d get:
Martin and Scola and Dragic.
AND
1st round pick (presumably from Dallas) in 2012 draft.
1st round pick from NY in 2012 draft.
Our own 1st round pick in 2012 Draft.
Second round pick from Dallas (not sure which year’s draft).
+ Dallas’ trade exception.
Thats – count them – three first round picks in this coming sooo important draft in 2012. That assumes we do no further deals.
With all that, I think it’s pretty obvious that we’d get a pretty decent shot drafting a good player from this supposedly really deep and franchise changing draft. Is that not good enough?? And we’d still have one of the best shooters in the leagie in Martin and 18/10 guy in Scola.
"This season is lost anyways" - no, it wasn't
Even you agree that, with the proposed trade, if we had kept all the players, we could have potentially been a 6th or 7th seed and potentially made the playoffs. I wouldn’t call such season being a loss or a waste.
That’s what we just had this past year, and I don’t think anyone thought the season was a total waste. People had some fun this past season. Fans got excited seeing us go against the Lakers in the first round. Sure, we got knocked out early, but it was hardly a waste of a season.
I think
ultimately this is where we differ and why we’ve had such a spirited back and forth.
You hit the nail on the head and it’s just different views on what the goal of having a team is.
To me, being a 7 seed with a team of guys all of whom are not going to get any better, means youre capped out and too good to draft in the lottery but not good enough to compete for a championship. I guess I feel like winning it all is the ONLY way to go, and the risks that arise are just something you have to live with. After all, until this decade who would’ve thought the Saints could compete for much less ever win a superbowl in our lifetimes?
I think I understand where you’re coming from as well, which is that being a moderately competitive 7 seed team can be fun to watch and build “goodwill” with the fanbase. I get that. It’s just to me, that isn’t a long-term scenario that puts you in a position to win it all someday.
So that’s that … I guess. Agree to disagree.
But
But did you see my post about all of the draft picks we could have easily gotten in 2012 draft by just swapping one of the three trade players?
That’s why I don’t understand the argument that we’d be forever be mired in mediocrity.
None
of those picks are potential lottery pics … except for our own.
That’s why Minn’s 1st rounder is So valuable if we could get it from the Clips. Dallas (and NY) are too good for those picks to be anywhere but in the … 20something range. And like you yourself pointed out earlier, a lot of times drafts don’t go that deep and you;re lucky enough to get a decent roster guy that late. But you KNOW minny will be terrible and their 1st Rder will most likely be a High lottery pick. The difference is huge imo.
I’d rather have 2 quality lottery picks in a draft than have a bunch of late 1st rounders …
Again, thats just splitting hairs tho. I never said that the LAL trade would result in NO assets for us at all. I knew Odom would never play a minute for the Hornets, I think that much was obvious. And the main reason the Lakers did the odom deal with dallas WASNT for the pick (as it’s not highly valued) it’s for the trade exception in anticipation to sign Dwight howard. I think we can all say we’re not a potential Dwight suitor next summer LOL.
The problem with that trade for us after Odom is gone is that the remaning guys are all virtually untradeable IMO, but the team will be just good enough to play ourselves out of a lottery pick (with our own 2012 1st rounder). If you ask me, the trade is actually BETTER for us if we had just gotten odom and not the other 3 dudes.
couldn't
Couldn’t we possibly trade up in the draft … like say swapping 2 or even 3 of those first rounds for a lottery pick? (Answer: yes, we probably could).
And also, isn’t this coming draft supposedly soooo deep and talented and chock full of impact players that with 3 first roundf picks we’d still have a pretty decent chance of getting one impact player from our three picks. (answer: Again, yes, probably a pretty good chance too).
Also, I don’t know why you think Martin is “untradable” Of course there would be a market for a 20-25ppg scorer in his very prime, there always is. (answer: Yes, Martin is very tradeable – he’s been getting traded every year recently).
and
And, by the way, while a lot has been said by opponents of the Lakers trade about the importance of participating in the 2012 draft (despite my pointing out that with the help of the Lakers trade we could have been strong participants in the 2012 draft), I have yet to read much about what player in the 2012 draft will supposedly be the savior of the Hornets?
Can we name any names? Who will be the franchise player or, at least, potential franchise player who we are aiming for in the 2012 draft?
With so much angst and hand wringing about participating in next year’s draft, it’s a bit odd that nobody has even mentioned any names. “We’ll know him when we see him” hardly sounds like a plan around which to build for the future.
I think it was
the OP of this article who mentioned that the Martin/Scola deal was a poor one for you guys. I totally agree with this. There is nothing worse than being just good enough to make it to the playoffs and possibly get to the 2nd round. That cycle ends quickly, and usually with an overpay of a mediocre player, or one whose production can be nearly duplicated with a young draft pick. If I were trading Paul, I’d do whatever i could to add draft picks, and salary relief. Look at how the clippers are once again messing up their chances of building a great team. They waste 8 mill a year in cap space on butler, with Griffin approaching FA after next season. They could either re-sign Jordan at the same offer he is going to the Warriors and attract one of the big 3 FAs this summer with Griffin, Gordon, Jordan and being in LA as the attraction, OR they could let Jordan walk and sign 2 of the big 3 this offseason in a team with Griffin/Howard and CP3 or Dwill. Theyd have to let Gordon go in the 2nd one, but theyd have 3 true stars all either approaching or in their primes.
With High picks in this years draft you guys gotta better chance of hitting a home run. You get a star on that rookie deal and anything can happen if built right, especially with cap relief. Pick up another very good player in next years draft and youd have 2 high draft picks on rookie deals with guys like Westbrook, Rose, Wall, Curry etc. approaching FA. It’s pretty clear, Presti has shown how to build a team in a mid to small market. If the right player isn’t there, don’t overpay. Go for short deals to hopefully catch lightning in a bottle and wait it out for a true impact player. Hell, if we can rebuild through FA in NY where supposedly rebuilding is a no-no, it can be done anywhere. When Walsh clearly conveyed the teams plan in 07-08, we all knwe itd be a painful few years, but the patience has paid off, and I for one feel we now have a team that can contend with the Heat and Bulls, especially with the addition of Chandler and hopefully JJ Barea.
by MetsKnicksRutgers on Dec 11, 2011 9:11 AM CST reply actions
yes, there is something worse
Yers, there is something a LOT worse than being just good enough to make the playoffs year after year and that is being a perennial lottery team. Plenty teams have gone that route.
From the perspective of a fan whose team is just good enough to make the playoffs it may seem like things just couldn’t be worse. But try a few consecutive years years in a the lottery and then suddenly just a chance to make the playoffs once seems like the Holy Grail. Think Charlotte and Memphis and the desperate moves they made just to put themselves into the playoff picture for one season.
Man
I HEAR you! I suffered through year after year of trying to put a band-aid on on a severed artery. I’ve just found that it doesn’t work. The knicks have an easier time than the Hornets attracting stars in FA thats for sure, but if a team drafts well, and knows when to cut losses, and spend money, a contender can be built. I just see the Thunder, who instead of overpaying for Green, they flipped him for Perkins, who I believe will get better the further away from surgery he gets.
SImilarly, the bulls have let countless popular players who were original draft picks walk, such as Eddy Curry (well he wasnt all that popular), jamal Crawford, Tyrus Thomas, and Ben Gordon. Now they did luck out with gettin the number 1 when Rose came out, when they had like a 1% chance, but they also got unlucky with the Aldridge trade. But, after building the team well, even they made a mistake in reaching for Boozer when they should have stood pat with the team they had and would still have tonsa cap space. now, they gotta lock up rose, gibson, and noah, and already have Deng (a mistake) and Boozer taking up tonsa cap room. They turned an ideal situation, into one that isn’t as good as it should be. My point, basically is the old cliche, know twhen to hold em, know when to fold em.
by MetsKnicksRutgers on Dec 11, 2011 9:33 AM CST up reply actions
NBA SUCKS
I ‘ve been a New Orleans basketball fan dating back to Jazz in the 70’s and I think that maybe I’m done with it. The NBA is not set up to allow small market teams to prosper. The “solutions” to the Hornet’s problems in many of the comments that I’ve read online are either to attain high draft picks or cap space to get new stars on the Hornet’s roster to allow us to compete for a championship. New stars on the Hornet’s roster will set us up for nothing more than the same situation that we’re in now with our “stars” not wanting to play here. I would be happy with a moderately competitive team that would make the playoffs now and then which is what the initial trade with the Lakers and Rockets would have made us. NBA SUCKS!
You dont think
if Demps built a team similar to the thunder, said stars wouldnt stay? i’ll try and find the link, but the bevy of moves the hornets made (most of them Shinn encouraged or so I read) after that awesome 56 win season, btw I LOVED that team, were downright piss-poor. It was a simmons article, and Ill try and find it.
by MetsKnicksRutgers on Dec 11, 2011 10:00 AM CST up reply actions
OKC
was pure luck. Where they ended up in drafts and what players happened to be available next. Sure there was some planning but under no circumstances can anyway assume you can follow the Thunders strategy to a tee. Where would that organization be had they gotten the first pick and drafted Oden?
totally agree
While teams have been built through the draft, there’s almost no example of a team shooting to success all because of one draft.
Bulls got Jordan in one draft. But they were also skillful/lucky enough to later draft Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant and even with those three, it still took them no less than 6 years to really jell.
Shaquille O’Neal changed the fortunes of Orlando, but they also drafted Penny Hardaway, Dennis Scott, Nick Anderson, etc. It took several good/lucky drafts and some losing for that team to get to the top, and once they got there, it all fell apart when Shaq left.
More recent example: OKC drafted Durant in 2007, but they also followed it up with Westbrooke. Meanwhile the early Durant teams were woeful.
LA Clippers? They got a franchise player in Griffin. But they already had Gordon. And sure, now that looks like a winning combo, but how many years of horrible non-playoff teams did they have before they got to where they are now?
Meanwhile, there are numerous teams who just keep drafting in the lottery and never get anywhere. Minnesota, Sacramento, Clippers, etc. etc. Teams that seem to pick in the lottery year after year and… well, keep on picking in the lottery year after year.
The only thing that can be said about building through the draft is that: 1. You won’t do it in one draft, 2. there’s plenty of risk – you may fail and continue to be bad, and 3. even in the best case, it will take several years and probably lots of losing along the way.
People who think that all we have to do is go through one bad season, then we’ll draft our Kevin Durant in 2012, and then we begin contending for championships until the end of the decade could be in for a rude awakening.
That's
the risk you have to take. And for every OKC that “lucks” into a durant you have a Cleveland that gets Lebron only to surround him with crap pieces and watch him leave.
OKC getting young talent WHILE STILL sucking enough to draft well again for the next 2/3 years is the PERFECT scenario to rebuild. Is the draft an exact science? No. But what choice to you have?
OKC didn’t just get durant, they drafted westbrook, who was a pretty big risk at the time since he didnt even play Point Guard in college. Then they drafted Harden (ahead of curry) and people bashed them for that until Harden developed and we all saw how much of a baller he was last year in the playoffs. Oh, AND they drafted Ibaka with a 24th pick, which is looking like a smart move as well.
That’s the key, you can blame one lottery pick panning out or not on “luck” but a string of hits like OKC pulled off ^ here is not just luck its SMARTS. They deserve to be good b/c they made good choices. We have to trust Demps to do that in the subsequent drafts from now on. You can’t just adopt this Chicken Little attitude of “Some draft picks dont pan out, its all a crapshoot … THUS we shouldn’t rebuild through the draft”
What’s the alternative then? Sign a splashy big-time Free Agent ? To a team in this kind of situation? HA good luck with that.
This is the ONLY viable rebuilding route. Sure there are perennial lottery teams, but that’s because they make DUMB choices like selecting lottery picks that bust out. You just have to trust Demps that he can turn us into a San Antonio or OKC and not a Minnesota or Sacremento.
Will there be lean times? Yeah. But for the LONG TERM this is the only way. Hanging onto 40 wins for the next few years accomplishes nothing and won’t “Save” basketball in Nola like a lot of people think.
"We have to trust Demps" ...
Totally agree. Which is why I don’t understand why you wouldn’t trust Demps with the trade that HE wanted to do.
You suggest we should trust Demps in drafting us out of this mess, but you’re fine second guessing him on the trade that HE wanted.
It sounds more like you’re saying I should trust YOU over Demps when it comes to trades, but when it comes to the draft, I need not fear in trusting our GM (who in your own opinion almost relegated our team to perennial mediocrity were it not for the wise and fateful intervention of the league)…
Can't agree with this more
Sick and tired of fans not understanding there is a process. Sometimes you can go the quick route and load up on youth from a trade. Many other times though, you’ve got to go piecemeal.
Demps
is working under CONFLICTING interests here. You have to realize, he felt compelled to make the best Short – Term basketball deal in order to make us “attractive” to potential buyers. That’s 1/2 of his mandate. But as the GM he’s also concerned with the long-term viability of the franchise. Thats the second 1/2. IMO this trade only fulfills one of these, and that’s the short term. We get the most basketball value possible in return for Cp3. But that just keeps us closest to what we were last year. Which is a bottom seed playoff team. Then we have to make additional moves while saddled with guys who will keep us too “competitive” to actually get a good lottery pick. And I’ve said this a million times but the same reasons we want to move these guys is the same reason a lot of trade suitors will be scared away.
I think Demps has his hands tied by the current situation, he couldn’t Not make the short term trade, and i think the League stepping in (as any “Owner” would have in a similar situation) relieved him of this burden. It frees him to look for the best Long-Term deal now. The League is in effect becoming the fall guy for the trade not going through, but in actuality this allows us to make the best Long term move.
"he felt compelled"
And how do you know this?
by Downtowndave78 on Dec 11, 2011 2:41 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
What I mean is
didnt Paul re-up once? Why wouldnt he have done it again if you guys were still a 55+ win team? He would have no motivation to leave.
by MetsKnicksRutgers on Dec 11, 2011 10:01 AM CST up reply actions
I'm liking a deal with Boston
But only if Demps can find a landing spot for Rondo. I like his speed and his defense but, other than that, he really doesn’t have much to offer the Hornets. He benefits greatly from playing with Pierce, Allen, and Garnett. He wouldn’t have the benefit of playing with those type of shooters in New Orleans. The pieces I’d like to see the Hornets get are the rookies that Boston drafted this year. E’twaun Moore and JaJaun Johnson.
And Rondo can't shoot
Which is a big deal if you can’t pass it to 3 all-stars. He shoots worse than a drunken freshmen at her first beer pong game.
yes
Would gladly take moore and jajuan johnson and a draft pick, with the ability to flip rondo. Gives us young talent that we desperately need.
by aburton531 on Dec 11, 2011 11:13 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Yeah, NOOOOOOO to Rajon Rondo
No Celtics superdeal with Chris Paul and David West. No thank you.
I had resigned myself to the other deal completely because I just wanted the situation done with. I didn’t like it at first (for the reasons you mentioned) and referred to it on my facebook as “mediocrity hell.” I didn’t want it. However, if the new regime wanted to remain competitive, I wasn’t going to get upset. For whatever reason, it’s not happening and hopefully it opens up the door for newer deals to come in. If the Lakers do get Dwight, it’s actually a better deal for them than getting Paul (although nobody here cares about that). It stands to be seen how getting Howard affects their abilities to sign Paul as well.
If after the Dwight trade, Paul sees that both New York and Los Angeles maxed themselves out without him, maybe he’ll be open to deals with the Clipperse and/or Warriors (I would say the Clippers are more of a possibility because of Blake Griffin). Anyhow, just my two cents.
"You play to win the game."
This
If after the Dwight trade, Paul sees that both New York and Los Angeles maxed themselves out without him, maybe he’ll be open to deals with the Clipperse and/or Warriors (I would say the Clippers are more of a possibility because of Blake Griffin). Anyhow, just my two cents
Been wondering about the same exact thing now too.
trade with the clips
The clips have much young talent to offer, plus the unprotected 1st rd draft pick which will like be very high. The only thing I think we lose by missing out on the lakers is there was a possibility that they take on okafors contract. Ideal trade brings in young guys, picks, and sheds okafors contract, or at least 2 of the 3.
by aburton531 on Dec 11, 2011 11:15 AM CST via mobile reply actions
Yeah
If you REALLY are going to rebuild… then you HAVE to move Okafor and possibly move Trevor Ariza as well. Depending on what deal the Hornets get, the team may really need a repeat of the 2004/2005 season and the complete firesale that happened there.
"You play to win the game."
by MrWayneKeller on Dec 11, 2011 11:30 AM CST up reply actions
Amnesty can also be used on Okafor
Trevor Ariza’s contract is probably the easier of the two to move. Although I’m not sure there’s a market for him right now.
And who are you guys planning on signing to replace Okafor?
by Downtowndave78 on Dec 11, 2011 2:44 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Well If We're Gonna Be Bad
Be all the way bad…. who cares who replaces Okafor for this season at that point?
"You play to win the game."
by MrWayneKeller on Dec 11, 2011 2:50 PM CST up reply actions
I went to
college in Ohio and was on Cavs message boards a lot when the whole Lebron thing was going down and every single fan there understood to a tee that the only way to rebuild in the NBA is through either big FA signings or the draft. ANd they also understood that small market teams can ONLY take the 2nd route, risks and all. AND they all were pulling for a complete house-cleaning, rehaul completely around draft picks and youth. Nobody there wanted any of this crap about clinging onto a 7 seed playoff berth and getting overpaid old guys.
I don’t understand why so many people here are terrified of a rebuild. Will we lose a lot? Yes. That’s the point. The more you lose the better. And the quicker you get around to it the less you’ll suffer in the long run.
Say the HOU/LAL trade goes through. And say we flip odom to dalls like LA just did. Ok we get 1 draft and a trade exception … but with Scola and Martin on the team … (and maybe West, depending on how things wouldve panned out) we still are decent enough to Not lose every night. And then what. You pick outside the lottery. Scola has a terrible contract and is 31 and plays the SAME POSITION as west. So even if you dumped WEst to boston you got virtually a clone in return, which doesn’t help the team tank. Martin is a one dimensional player who plays no D and has already had 2 teams give up on him.
Why are we trying to be a poor man’s version of last season’s Houston ??
Cleveland had one of the worst seasons in memory this past year. But they cleaned house and got Kyrie and Thompson in the draft. Which is a pretty good haul for one draft if you ask me. They will suck again this year b/c those 2 are young, and so they have a shot at another good draft if they’re smart.
I don’t like Dan Gilbert much but I have to agree that the scorched earth rebuild tactic the Cavs have taken is the best and only viable route if you’re a small market team. Otherwise you become trapped in Perpetual mediocrity with no way out.
Umm
I don’t understand why so many people here are terrified of a rebuild. Will we lose a lot? Yes. That’s the point. The more you lose the better. And the quicker you get around to it the less you’ll suffer in the long run.
We don’t have the luxury thinking our fanbase will be able to support such a losing stretch. There have been a ton of rumblings about this organization moving since Hurricane Katrina. Lack of good ownership AND a prolonged bleak future scream team move to me.
there is that factor too
We have almost no chance of getting new ownership while CP issue remains unresolved and the longe the CP issue remains unresolved, the more likely the chance that we have no new ownership this season.
Further, training camp is starting and right now, the best that Monty can do is do 2 vs 2 drills with a 5th player watching (that’s if I am right in remembering that we haved 5 players under contract… or do we have less?). Hardly enticing scenario to new ownership.
It sounds nice to say “the more you lose the better”, but after you go through a couple of seasons when fans are leaving the stadium in the middle of the 3rd quarter, it can easily become a lose-lose for everyone involved, and that scenario is a real risk.
The assumption
is that fans will leave in the 3rd quarter for a losing team, eventually forcing the Hornets to move. That’s assuming first that fans only want to watch a winning team. Which is incorrect. Fans will also pay to watch a team that is young and has POTENTIAL to win later. How else do you think Donald Sterling (scum that he is) has managed a profitable NBA franchise for so many decades (And they weren’t always in LA either)? He always sells his fans on young stars and the potential that their team might be good down the road. Of course, he also always trades or lets these guys go before that promise can be fulfilled, but the point is, people will pay to watch young stars lose, over watching vets compete year in and year out for a 7 seed.
"Fans will also pay to watch a team that is young and has POTENTIAL to win later.
Yep, and if we could have gotten the Lakers trade, we could have easily had 3 first round draft picks in this coming very deep and supposedly very important 2012 draft — in addition to having veteran players.
See my post above.
Honestly
Given the reaction of the majority of the fanbase following the trade for Martin & Scola…. I don’t think they would have been happy with that move either.
People forget the team was good last year, had Chris Paul and nobody wanted to watch. I don’t think that being a 6, 7 seed was going to keep fannies in the seats. I don’t think rebuilding is going to do it either. Chris Paul staying and keeping the team relevant would do that but that’s not a possibility at this point.
Either move is going to result in a lackluster reaction from the casual fan and therefore we all should stop arguing about how either deal relates to the fans.
"You play to win the game."
by MrWayneKeller on Dec 11, 2011 12:53 PM CST up reply actions
probably yeah
On the other hand, the speculated potential deal of Stephon Curry and Epke Udoh seemed to send many of the natives on these boards into various states of exhilaration and excitment…
Monty Williams Comments On The Chris Paul Distractions
http://www.nola.com/hornets/index.ssf/2011/12/post_28.html
“When I look at my body of work as a coach and how much I love this game and get guys ready to play, it’s a major distraction,‘’ Williams said. "I’m amazed at how much has gone into all of this. We had such a great building block year last season and we’re not even talking about that. From that standpoint, I’m bothered by the distraction that this has become.
“It’s one of those situations where I don’t know the right answer. I don’t even know if I have a right answer to give you guys because I have my opinion. But I have five children and a wife and my opinion may cost me a lot of money. But it has become a huge distraction.’’
"You play to win the game."
Hey, Just from a Clippers perspective
From what i can tell a lot of fans want the Clips to give up the Minnesota pick without the guaranteed signature, but instead maybe a guarantee that he’ll opt in to his final year. Give him two years to play with Blake and Eric Gordon and i doubt he will say no.
The offer
Kaman
Aminu
Bledsoe
Minny Pick
for
Paul
Okafor
Its as close to fair value, in terms of rebuilding pieces, i think you can do. From what i here Gordon and DeAndre Jordan are off limits.
If Houston loses out of the marc Gasol sweepstakes
Houston gets: Kaman, Aminu
NOH gets: Kevin martin, bledsoe, Minny pick, ( + one more if needed, either Jordan hill, maybe budigner, the clips might also need to send a pick to Houston to convince them to send one more piece)
Clips get: Paul, Okafor ( and maybe Ariza)
I think there are some fair trades the hornets and other teams need to explore, given that Paul really will re-sign with the Clippers.
Good Deal For The Clippers There
End up with Chris Paul, Okafor, Griffin and Gordon. That’s pretty damn solid. Does seem like one of the better deals out there I guess.
"You play to win the game."
by MrWayneKeller on Dec 11, 2011 5:33 PM CST up reply actions
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