Monty Williams Week: Monty's Mistake
by Caleb462 on May 3, 2011 7:43 AM CDT
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PrintThis post might rub some people the wrong way. I can understand why. Here we are, finally at the end of a long and emotionally draining season. The Hornets fought hard in the first round of the playoffs despite being severely outmatched and without David West, and gave us two of the more memorable performances in Hornets history. What am I doing talking about Marcus Thornton at a time like this?
Sorry, I’ve got to speak my peace. If you are tired of the Thornton discussion, feel free to skip this article and the discussion that may very well ensue. With that out of the way, let’s get started. Back in December, in one of my earliest articles for At the Hive, I wrote this:
In an interview with SLAM a few weeks back Monty Williams said that he believes most players will improve when they are given consistent minutes. For whatever reason, he isn't applying this philosophy to Marcus. It's going to really suck when Marcus drops 35 on the Hornets in a few years wearing a Nets uniform or something.
I was frustrated, obviously, but at the time I was still fairly optimistic that Monty would change his tactics with Marcus and let the kid play. Of course, that didn’t happen, and Marcus is now sporting a Kings jersey., As it turns out, Marcus dropping points on the Hornets wasn’t as painful as I thought it would be. Marcus played well, but the Hornets won that March 12th meeting, and it was an exciting and entertaining game. Chris Paul looked like the Chris Paul we’ve all come to know and love. New arrival Carl Landry had his first 20 point game as a Hornet. It was the kind of win that made me feel good to be a Hornets fan and a Marcus Thornton fan at the same time. At least for that night I found it easy to forget Monty’s mishandling of Marcus Thornton. However, I couldn’t forget it for too long, and its that mishandling that I want to talk about.
Monty Williams had, on the whole, a successful and impressive season as a rookie head coach. He instilled a commitment to defense in the team, and as a result the Hornets challenged for the title of the Western Conference’s best defense all season long, only losing that spot after a series of injuries to Emeka Okafor, Trevor Ariza and David West. Despite up and down play from Chris Paul, and despite the injuries to important players, Monty Williams kept the team well above .500 and guided the team to the playoffs. It should also be noted that he did this despite having stepped into a rather turbulent situation. By that I mean the rash of Chris Paul trade speculation over the summer and the ongoing search for an owner. That’s all commendable, and Monty Williams (and his staff) deserve a great deal of credit for those accomplishments.
That being said, I firmly believe Monty Williams made a serious misjudgment in regards to Marcus Thornton. As a Sacramento King, our boy Buckets averaged 20.1 points, 4.4 rebounds, 3.2 assists, 1.6 steals and just 2.0 turnovers per 36 minutes. Per game he averaged just a hair over 21 points. He did this on solid percentages of 45.0% from the field, 36.1% from three and 80.5% from the line. His ratio of points to field goal attempts stands at a solid 1.21. According to Dean Oliver’s Offensive Rating, Thornton generated approximately 112 points per 100 possessions for the Kings, which is more than anyone not named Chris Paul or (coincidentally) Carl Landry generated for the Hornets. His PER shot from 14.0 as a Hornet up to 18.2 as a King, and he was one of only two Kings with a PER higher than the league average of 15.0. As a King, Marcus Thornton was generally the best player on the floor.
Is any of that surprising? No, not in the least. Over the course of 73 games last season, Marcus Thornton averaged over 20 points per 36 minutes, posted a PER of 17.4 and an Offensive Rating of 111. Those of us who watched him play every game saw what kind of scorer and shooter he was as well as the kind of player he might one day be. The fact that Thornton not only returned to form as a King but also showed improvement is not an unexpected outcome. Given the playing time, we all knew he could do just that.
"So what?" you might say. You might think that the trade for Carl Landry was a good one, that Landry played well and acted as an efficient and reliable scorer, and that his production was vitally important due to David West’s absence. I wouldn’t disagree with any of that. In fact, those are my exact thoughts. However, does any of this change the fact that Monty Williams made a mistake with Marcus? I certainly don’t think so. No one could have predicted whether or not David West would suffer a season-ending injury, so the fact that Carl Landry ended up filling a vital role has no bearing on whether or not Marcus Thornton should have been a played a larger and more consistent role for the Hornets. Besides, it’s conceivable that had Thornton succeeded in New Orleans this season, the Hornets might have gotten more than Carl Landry back in a trade for him.
Of course, you might very well have other objections. For instance, perhaps Thornton simply excelled because he played on a bad team, which you might think is in line with what he did last season. Or perhaps Thornton excelled because he was playing in a system where he could excel. I don’t think the first objection holds any weight. There’s simply not much evidence that playing on a bad team can pump up a player’s most important statistics. For certain, the most capable offensive player on a bad team may very well get more minutes, more shot attempts and more time with the ball than he might on a more talented team. As a result, the player might see an increase in statistics like points per game or assists per game. By the same token, however, the player may very well turn the ball over more and score less efficiently. If this happened with Marcus, one might have a case with that first objection. But this is not what we saw from Marcus. Marcus’ stats increased in both volume and efficiency.
The second objection, on the other hand, deserves some consideration. At 95.1 possessions per game, Paul Westphal’s Kings were one of the fastest playing teams in the league this season. I think most will agree that Marcus’ playing style suits a fast-paced offense well, and New Orleans under Monty Williams has been anything but fast. That being said, the 2009-2010 Hornets, though they played faster than the Hornets under either Byron Scott or Monty Williams, were simply average in terms of pace at 92.6 possessions per game. Of course, if you want to make the case that league average is practically Nellieball compared to the Monty Williams-led Hornets, I’d probably agree.
Yet I have a hard time believing that a player as skilled and as talented as Marcus can only excel under certain conditions. It’s not as if Marcus only scores in transition. I wish I had the situational statistics to back this up, but to my eyes Marcus has always been excellent off of cuts and screens, and he’s one of those (seemingly rare) players who displays excellent off the ball movement and constant activity. These facets of his game can work well no matter the speed of play. Besides, I believe it’s a coach’s responsibility to utilize a player’s strengths as best as he or she can. That, ultimately, is my complaint against Monty Williams. Rather than find a way to use Marcus effectively, Williams instead chose to restrict Marcus’ involvement. Williams used Marcus erratically and inconsistently. One day it was garbage minutes, the next day it was a DNP-CD, and the next day Marcus was being relied upon for crucial minutes down the stretch in a tight game. Then it was another DNP-CD. I think it’s unrealistic, and perhaps foolish, to expect a player to perform consistently when he’s being given minutes in such an inconsistent manner. Monty Williams could have instructed the second unit to push the ball more, and used Marcus as the featured scorer of this unit. Or he could have attempted to design creative plays that utilized Marcus’ long-range shooting abilities and Chris Paul’s deft ability to find open three-point shooters. Perhaps he did. There’s a lot we can’t know about the relationship between player and coach and Monty’s coaching of Marcus. However, anything Monty did or did not try would have had to be supported by consistent playing time, and this was never the case.
A capable, efficient and wildly exciting scorer, a hugely adored hometown favorite, possibly even a future all-star. That’s Marcus Thornton. I hope one day he’ll be a Hornet again. I do believe every rookie head coach should be allowed a large helping of mistakes, but I can’t help but feel that this particular mistake was an awfully big one. But what’s done is done. In the comments, I expect raucous support, vehement disagreement and a fair smattering of insults and questions about the legitimacy of my fanhood. I’ll be disappointed in anything less. Go Hornets!
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Feel any better?
Now we gotta let it go.
In the last feature asking for a grade for monty, I proposed I couldn’t.
I gave him 1000 percent to installing a new spirit and team/organization attitude, but then at best C- for player development/roatation.
I can’t average that out.
I do not know how to fix a grade to thse pluses or minuses.
The failure at development caused us a higher playoff position and very likely a second round spot.
But this is really hard stuff for a rookie coach.
Why was a rookie coach allowed to make such a player call in the first place????
I'm one of the few
who think that Monty made a mistake. But i don’t think it was all Monty’s fault. I’m on the side that says monty did give Marcus a chance, but he didn’t give him a pretty long leash. That’s not a way to develop a player as streaky as Marcus was.
But i also think other people are at a fault here, not just Monty. Marcus maybe at a fault here for failing to commit defensively to the team, not until late in the season. I watched games early in the season and Marcus was just lost on the defensive philosophy. Kudos on Marcus for improving over the season. Marcus also never really got into the flow offensively. This is both a fault of Marcus and Monty. Marcus could never really excel in the half court offense(at least this season).
Cp3 might also be at a fault here. CP3 never really developed a chemistry with Marcus. Had he developed chemistry, Marcus might have played better, stayed in the starting 5 and we might not have this discussion.
I don’t believe in destiny, but this situation really disheartens me. I really hoped Marcus could develop with that starting 4(CP3, West, Okafor, Ariza) to give us a starting 5 that can compete with ANYBODY. Unluckily, all the circumstances happened, and although i’m happy with the Landry trade, I’d still consider this a huge mistake by Monty, but a mistake where in he is not the only one at fault. :)
Agree with ppelico, hopefully, after this, everyone can just move on. :)
Can we just let this go already
First, I’ll just speak to the “Monty made a huge mistake” idea – although the core of what I’d like to say’s at the bottom.
One day it was garbage minutes, the next day it was a DNP-CD, and the next day Marcus was being relied upon for crucial minutes down the stretch in a tight game. Then it was another DNP-CD. I think it’s unrealistic, and perhaps foolish, to expect a player to perform consistently when he’s being given minutes in such an inconsistent manner.
This is just the way you perceive Marcus Thornton’s usage, and you’re framing it that way. It’s not intellectually dishonest at all – I’m not saying that at all – there are just a lot of red flags in your analysis. It’s akin to me saying, early-on in this past season, that the reason Darren Collison isn’t/wasn’t putting up the stellar numbers he did here is/was because his usage early-on was interrupted by Jim O’Brien’s insertion of AJ Price, & Dunleavy. That would be disproven by the fact that he still wasn’t putting up NOLA nos. when Frank Vogel took the reins and DC got free reign as the primary PG for Indiana.
There’s a reason Collison didn’t put up Hornets-like nos. in Indiana, and it’s a mirror replica of the reason why Thornton couldn’t put up nos. here like he is able to in Sacramento – both played for teams that had no structure, permitted them – especially Thornton, which shouldn’t be the case since DC’s a PG – to have the ball in their hands an inordinate amount of time to purely lob and chuck FGAs at will.
To look at a much better version of a player who’s had this kind of record, take Antawn Jamison. He’s infamous for putting up huge, fantasy-like nos. on bad teams, but when he went to the Cavs, and had to play off of the ball & put up defense at the same time on a contender (remember this is the LBJ Cavs, not the JJ Hickson Cavs), he disappeared because he’s just a great player for bad teams and doesn’t adjust well. Ditto for Richard Jefferson, who only did great on a contending team when the only other bona fide star was Jason Kidd, a by-&-large pure distributor/anti-chucker.
Second,
Of course, you might very well have other objections. For instance, perhaps Thornton simply excelled because he played on a bad team, which you might think is in line with what he did last season. Or perhaps Thornton excelled because he was playing in a system where he could excel. I don’t think the first objection holds any weight. There’s simply not much evidence that playing on a bad team can pump up a player’s most important statistics. For certain, the most capable offensive player on a bad team may very well get more minutes, more shot attempts and more time with the ball than he might on a more talented team. As a result, the player might see an increase in statistics like points per game or assists per game. By the same token, however, the player may very well turn the ball over more and score less efficiently.
Okay, I don’t see how you can on the one hand address the critique (“perhaps he excelled because he played for a bad team, which is in line with what he did last season”), then functionally ignore it by simply saying “or perhaps he was in a system in which he could excel. There’s simply not much evidence that shows that players put up great nos. just because their teams are bad.”
You don’t say what evidence there is, it certainly doesn’t sound like you did much due diligence into it because you concentrate the bulk of your analysis on the reasons you think Thornton can be affirmatively defended, rather than genuinely digging into the Thornton critique. Anyway, I’ll address what you’re saying here:
For certain, the most capable offensive player on a bad team may very well get more minutes, more shot attempts and more time with the ball than he might on a more talented team. As a result, the player might see an increase in statistics like points per game or assists per game. By the same token, however, the player may very well turn the ball over more and score less efficiently
1) IMO you’re missing the forest from the trees here by concentrating on specific, discrete nos. like PPG and APG. The overarching theme of players excelling on bad, disorganized teams is not about the team simply being bad – the theme and reality (IMO) is rather, that bad teams constantly play from behind, and usually against an opponent’s lesser personnel – bad teams usually start out playing from behind, and by the half, they’re behind by such a numerical distance, that opposing teams will insert their 2nd-teamers and relax their defenses.
2) Thornton played with Collison in our disorganized, injured, depleted Hornets team last year. Collison was the ball-distributor, and he took a fair amount of shots, but for DC it wasn’t inordinate because he balanced those shots with distribution, getting other players involved, and by accumulating steals (defense). Thornton on the other hand, was never consistently in the position of ballhandler. Usually, he would get the ball tossed his way on a fast-break, and he would shoot from the distance (not his strongest suit) or slash (his strongest suit) and try to get as close the basket as he could against what were usually the other team’s B-Squad waiting for the game to be over since the count was too much for the Bees to overcome. Anyway, I guess that’s my response to the theory that if Thornton was truly a ballhog, then he would be turning the ball over much more. I just think you’re not imposing adequate context – ballhandling was done by DC and others, Thornton hogged the ball in that when he demanded it, he shot it and did little else with it on either side of the court.
3) I think I addressed efficiency in #1. But just some more numbers to throw out there to reinforce the validity of #1: In 2009-2010, 37% of Thornton’s shots came directly at the rim, one of the highest rates among NBA guards. 47% of his made field goals came at the rim that year. Like Rohan said in a post in January, sure Thornton is better than Willie Green, but he is also more expensive, plays slightly worse defense, and Green would never command a quality player from a bad team since bad teams want guys who just score to minimally retain fan interest in games they mostly lose.
I have a hard time believing that a player as skilled and as talented as Marcus can only excel under certain conditions
I definitely know that alot of Hornets fans loved Thornton like whoa – it was stunning to me that he would get ovations on par with CP3 because he went to LSU/an SEC school, a testament to LSU/the SEC culture – and it was difficult for him to go, but he excelled in a disorganized offense run by a lame-duck GM forced to coach in the waning months of a lost season against teams that fielded their second and third-team personnel against us for the bulk of the game (2nd quarter onwards) because we usually were outdistanced at that point. He’s going to do great for the Kings because they’re so dysfunctional – I don’t know who decided to assemble a locker room with DeMarcus Cousins, Francisco Garcia, Tyreke Evans, and Marquis Daniels, or who thought that having one legitimate PG on the roster (Beno Udrih, kind of middling PG by league standards it seems) was a good idea – and they’ll play from behind, and as such MT will face a lot of defense that slacks as the game wears on, but at this point in his career I don’t see him excelling in a structured situation that requires him to play off-ball or to defend against teams who keep their stars and starters on the court for much longer durations.
Okay, so my main point. Can we just let this go? I mean you’re a much more active participant than I am able to be and are obviously a great Hornets fan, but simply disclaiming it (if you don’t like it read something else, you don’t have to engage on this) isn’t enough IMO. The whole “we want Marcus back”/“Marcus shouldn’t have been traded” thing has been over for months, and I just don’t find the debate very topical anymore because of how much time has passed and the fact that we went so deep, regardless whether we would have done worse or better if we had had Thornton instead of Landry, in the playoffs against a team we didn’t beat once during the regular season, it would just be a lot more enriching to talk about what we can do with this roster in terms of PT-allocation, trades, the cap, free-agents, and drafting. That being said, I’m not dogging your admiration for Marcus Thornton the player at all, just my constructive criticism that I wish we could just move on from this question I think has become a non-issue because it’s been so long & the team has obviously moved on. Just my penny of a thought that was probably far too verbose.
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on May 3, 2011 9:24 AM CDT reply actions
To say Thornton just chucked shots
Or lobbed them as you say is absolutely incorrect. The guy hits 45% of his shots. It doesn’t matter if you’re playing for a good team or a bad team, if you’re hitting at that percentage you’re a good shooter. I understand most of the critiques of Marcus, but him being called a chucker is completely off base.
njennings, do you realize the distinction betwee FGA and FG%?
I wasn’t saying he was a horrible shooter. He was a great shooter! I just think there’s a little more to the story than that. Obviously context matters. I could be wrong! But you’re losing me here.
Also, it may be “just me” that calls him a chucker here, but I don’t think he’s Kwame Brown, he has potential, just not a game that’s matured into something a good team could use – yet, IMO – but it’s not just me who’s called him a “chucker” – he does not get others involved in the game, and he demands the ball in order to shoot it, that, by definition, is a chucker, and Ric Bucher, Ryen Russillo, and SVP have all called him one but have not been implicating him as someone with Andre Miller’s 3PT%. Like those NBA guys, I’m also saying his game is all about needing the ball purely to score it without getting anyone else involved. And I’m saying it’s unsustainable for good teams, especially good teams with our particular Portland-esque system. But I’m not saying he’s the worst player in the world, “chucker” is someone who takes a ton of FGA. That’s what he does, and that’s okay, Kobe is frequently a “chucker” when he gets into volume-scoring fits (and when he takes more than 15 FGA, the Lakers usually lose), but he’s obviously not a bad player. So really, there’s no need to chastise use of the word “chucker” to describe him, and there’s an obvious distinction between FGA/game and FG% that you don’t seem to distinguish.
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on May 3, 2011 6:56 PM CDT up reply actions
No I fully understand the difference
I’m mincing words with you. To say someone chucks, to me, means they shoot with wreckless abandon. I’m saying Thornton doesn’t fit that category. And his fg% is evidence that he’s a calculated shooter.
to add one more thing to that
I don’t even think he’s a bad player, he’s a good one, he can obviously score proficiently – but a good one with some attendant costs/needs (has to have the ball in his hands to shoot, thus games will largely turn on his output, doesn’t play very effective defense) that can cost good teams IMO, especially good teams with our offensive & defensive philosophy
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on May 3, 2011 6:58 PM CDT up reply actions
To simplify Thornton's popularity as simply an LSU/local bias is not accurate
1. As I’ve said on here before, LSU Basketball isn’t even the second most popular sport on campus. It’s a distant 3rd to baseball and football. You’d be hard pressed to find many people in the New Orleans Arena that could name a single player on LSU’s basketball team right now. That was true at the time Marcus was in Baton Rouge as well.
2. I personally know talked to quite a few people that had zero connections to LSU, some that didn’t even grow up in this state, and they still were in love with Marcus’ game.
Did Thornton being from LA make him more popular? Of course. Was it the only reason? Not even remotely close. Thornton was the most exciting player on the team last year, and many times this year. Basketball fans will always be endeared to players of his style. Also, we should not pretend that it is only Hornets fans that have noticed this mistake. Kelly Dwyer on Yahoo! has repeatedly criticized Monty’s handling of Thornton, and he is not alone. In a week that we have decided to dedicate to reviewing Monty’s performance this season, I believe that a story on his most significant and controversial decision, in which he decided to play to barely replacement-level players over a 2nd-team All-Rookie selection, is more than fair game.
dis-agree
Anecdotal evidence like conversations just doesn’t do it for me, because I don’t think my multiple conversations with games should count as weight favoring the contention that he enjoyed inordinate local support because he was an LSU/SEC guy – even though those happened too. That all being said, the reason I premise that is because:
1) It was widely discussed that he and DC were trade bait with the Bees moving on to ‘10-’11 with a healthy roster of regulars with some needs to fill that they couldn’t address financially because of $$$-limitations and could more viably fix via trade
2) It seemed pretty apparent even before the season began – maybe it was just me, but I’m hardly a basketball sage so I don’t think I was playing the oracle of delphi here – that Thornton wasn’t considered an integral part of a disciplined Nate McMillan 2.0 offense that required work on defense (it isn’t lost on me that Belinelli is a horrible defender too, I don’t understand what we’re doing at the 2-spot either, but I do think that Thornton hardly answered the need for an off-guard who can bring the game that our system requires)
3) Even though those seemed either “unofficially” known, and he played sporadically, after he entered to the tune of the LSU-theme, he would get as many cheers as CP3. I don’t have any problem with it, I loved hearing cheering for any of our guys at home! I’m just saying, adding it all up, in tandem with that we were a season removed from ‘09-’10 and he was barely a sporadic blip, people were mad into him still when that anthem tolled. Anyway, I miss the cheers, not the player, and not for personal reasons, he was a blast to watch. I just don’t think he’s going to, for the foreseeable future – and it could change, he’s young, players always mature their games – do much except chuck shots for bad teams. But like I said, he’s young, he could turn out to be dazzling for a very good team and make me very, very wrong. I just don’t think he will, that’s all
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on May 3, 2011 6:50 PM CDT up reply actions
Dude, I'm a freakin' Yankee carpetbagger.
I could care less about SEC or LSU. I went to Tulane. So there’s my collegiate allegiance. But Thornton was loved for his GAME. Period. Ticktock6 would back me up, but she’s partially QUIT posting on Hornets blogs in part because she’s to this date FURIOUS over Hornets letting Thornton go. And she’s an ex-Yankee too. Him being a local is part of his popularity, I’m sure; but, you know, dudes named Marcus like him because they have the same name. Really, though him being AWESOME is the key part of his popularity.
Lol, guy, you just cannot help yourself. I don't mean to dismiss what you're saying, but you're answering every one of my questions directed in response to other individuals as if they're directed towards you
I’m just going to leave this one alone and move on
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on May 4, 2011 6:36 AM CDT up reply actions
Re: Collison
DC actually did recover to his overall NOLA numbers as his role in the offense became more consistent. The numbers actually do bear this out – as the season progressed, DC’s efficiency figures improved. Overall, the claim that Collison didn’t put up "NOLA numbers" in Indiana is a very weak one. His offensive rating stayed identical (105), his assist rate was very similar (29% vs. 32%) and his turnover rate improved. As far as your claim that he "chucked at will" here and not in Indiana? Again false. 13.3 FGA per 36 minutes there, 13.5 here. And the slightly lowered assists is offset by the fact that he got to the line with more frequency as a Pacer.
The number one reason Collison’s stats fell off is that his three point shooting fell off a cliff. He attempted the same number of threes per minute here and in Indy. Last year he shot 40%, and as a Pacer, he shot barely 33%. Of course, anyone that watched him extensively in college at UCLA or even in his rookie year here knows how inconsistent his 3pt shot is and susceptible to fluctuation due to the slow release. The reality is that if he shot the three like he did last year, his PER and other overall stats would have stayed virtually identical.
interesting!
Did not have time to dig into DC’s numbers but that is good stuff. In all seriousness, you are genuinely one of the most impressive fact-finders on SBNation
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on May 3, 2011 6:35 PM CDT up reply actions
Re: Jamison
Not sure I understand your point at all.
Throughout his career, Jamison actually has a negative correlation between FGA and offensive efficiency. You’re conflating counting stats with efficiency ones. As Caleb points out in his story, Thornton saw an increase in both types of stats in Sacramento, but the important one we should be focusing on is efficiency. Your Jamison example has no relevance in that case.
Concede Jamison, keep the rest, he played against bad teams most of the time. But more importantly, I hope nobody here took my args. personally
even if he played against good teams sometimes.
I really did not mean to sound angry, I feel as if I provoked some implicit intellectual dishonesty claims by putting my ideas out there. Let me just disclaim, if I’m truly detecting some bad vibes that go beyond the argument, that I really was just trying to address some argumentative features I thought were glaringly absent. That being said, I also am not in a position time-wise to perfect my arguments beforehand it being the thick of finals, however sad & lame that excuse is.
I hope nobody feels hurt by my arguments, I say these things with utmost respect for both of you who virtually and actually run this place.
More than anything, I would like to see this faux-debate in the rear-view mirror, it’s just been too long and we might as well argue about what we could have done 2 years ago had we kept J.R. Smith IMO
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on May 3, 2011 6:34 PM CDT up reply actions
Also, what about re: Richard Jefferson?
You’re a better data-miner than I am, is my theory right or wrong on him?
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on May 3, 2011 7:23 PM CDT up reply actions
Jefferson played Great on all those good Nets teams, including Finals appearance, so, yeah.
And while Jefferson sucked 2 years ago on Spurs, he was fantastic this year. That, I wager, is just him adjusting to the system and style of Pop. So that.
ditto, that question's not exclusively for Rohan, but I'd like to hear from him since he is an expert data-miner
and you didn’t address my question with anything but your beliefs, which is about as concrete as my inferences. I’ll wait for Rohan’s thoughts, thanks
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on May 4, 2011 6:27 AM CDT up reply actions
Re:
Thornton hogged the ball in that when he demanded it, he shot it and did little else with it on either side of the court.
Agree with this. I think the weakest part of his game was his inability to turn his own scoring ability into opportunities for other players.
Assist % went up to 15.3 and averaged 3.2 per 36min with Sac.
Not great by any means, but he showed some improvement. I figure most of it may be due to him being used much more extensively as a ball-handler in Sacto, esp while Evans was out.
Re: MT only excelling against bad opponents
First of all, this totally ignores the fact that he’s had great nights against not only good opponents but also in games that weren’t blowouts. In case you’ve forgotten, Cleveland had one of the strongest defenses in the entire NBA last year. Similarly, San Antonio sure as hell wanted to stop Thornton earlier this year but found themselves completely unable to do so.
The point is not that Thornton had a great year. Or even a good one. Even the staunchest of Thornton supporters will tell you this. It’s that Thornton flashed huge scoring and more importantly, efficient scoring potential in his first 1.5 years. Large and efficient scoring is a rare combination in the NBA. Did he do a bad job of involving teammates? Yes. Is there a case that he plays better at a higher pace. Yes, and MZURK laid the argument out for this very neatly.
But those things are exactly the point … as a coach, Monty Williams should have done more to take that raw scoring skill and and incorporate it into a horrible, horrible offense. Pace too slow? Speed it up. It’s not like the bench was playing such spectacular defense that increasing the pace a little bit for the bench would have undone some stellar play.
To me, this argument is actually less about Marcus himself than it is about Monty’s refusal to acknowledge the positive aspects of his game.
he had some good games against good opponents, but really, wouldn't that sample size be tiny compared to how he rocked either bad teams or
good teams who just fielded their B and C-squads because the depleted, disorganized Jeff Bower team were always behind, and by the end of the game, way behind?
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on May 3, 2011 6:37 PM CDT up reply actions
We are looking back at the season and Monty's tenure
And this is a huge part of it. The fact that this has generated 100 comments already shows that people want to talk about it, so I think my caveat of “ignore it if you aren’t interested” is totally legit. And I think its a little disingenous to say you want to let it go and then write a post as big as the original article.
Anyway, as to your points, I honestly don’t think I can answer them any better than Rohan and company just did. Anything specific will go under their posts…
Ooooookay
Several of those arguments remain, such as the small sample size of MT doing well against good teams compared to the huge sample size comprised of his PT-heavy role as the featured player on an ‘09-’10 Hornets team that was constantly playing from behind against teams that would sag their defenses waiting for the clock to strike 0:00, and the fact that
Thornton hogged the ball in that when he demanded it, he shot it and did little else with it on either side of the court.
Rohan: Agree with this. I think the weakest part of his game was his inability to turn his own scoring ability into opportunities for other players.
I’m sorry but just because he enjoyed majority support in NOLA and likely here – I’m not kidding anyone, he was a good kid, fun to watch especially when our team was really decimated and out of contention two seasons ago, he had a lot of local support because of where he went to school, I have nothing against him personally and think he gave us a spark of great fun/a great ride while it lasted/while it was necessary – doesn’t mean it’s bordering on unquestionable the idea that perhaps he’s not who you think he is.
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on May 3, 2011 6:41 PM CDT up reply actions
Lol do you enjoy saying the same thing in response to my questions to Caleb and Rohan?
I understood your response the first time you posted this
Skill is skill. Put all the rest behind you. Play your heart out. Truth has out. MTnow23 is good. Always was. Always will be.
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on May 4, 2011 6:25 AM CDT up reply actions
I never noticed a difference in play...
in Thornton based on whether or not the team was playing from behind or the quality of competition. If you think there is a difference in play, I think it’s up to you to provide some evidence for that.
As to the second thing – I’m not sure what your point is exactly. I agree Thornton is primarily a scorer/shooter who doesn’t do much passing/distributing. That’s one of his limitations, no argument here. But… so what exactly? I don’t think the guy has a perfect game, far from it.
doesn’t mean it’s bordering on unquestionable the idea that perhaps he’s not who you think he is.
Well, yeah, and the same goes for you.
I agree.
Monty did make a mistake, but really we have to let it go. We would have needed Landry for the playoffs even if West would have been healthy, but who says we didn’t need another source of points? Look, we would have lost the series whether we had Landry or not, and who knows if he’ll come back next season. The Landry move was more oriented to win now, even though we gave up an equally important piece to that win now equation. In the end though, this team was never ready to win now. Glaring holes and weaknesses such as our lack of a starting 2 guard, unproductive and inconsistent bench, as well as an often overpowered Emeka Okafor, are no way to go about winning a title. As important as Mek was during the season, he was a liability in the playoffs for us. Dell Demps and Monty Williams had better understand that Chris Paul needs better pieces around the he and David West because their window of opportunity is closing.
"I've been big ever since I was little." - William "The Refrigerator" Perry
by 504life on May 3, 2011 9:43 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
and I apologize for that comment being all over the place, I just let it roll
"I've been big ever since I was little." - William "The Refrigerator" Perry
Thanks Caleb
BTW, that revolving door and consistent playtime at SG is the same exact reason I don’t want Green AND Belinelli back next season. Grab whichever is cheaper and move on.
Also, you can’t really blame us. We’ve seen 5-6 years of just god awful talent development from this organization and it looks like we’re about to endure another 5-6 more. Our lack of being able to develop young players and poor drafts has led us to not improving AT ALL in almost 4 years. We’ve swapped around veterans for more veterans, rookies and talented players who weren’t excelling for more veterans, cash for more veterans, etc.
It gets really old. Look at all the other playoff teams in the league and you can point to their young guys that grew up with the team and got better.
Look at ours and give me one in the past 6 years not named CP3.
Don't understand
Our reduced number of draft picks is a kink in the armor, but to say we’re going to endure 5-6 more awful talent development years is just wrong? We don’t know Monty’s long term teaching abilities plus there is always free agency/trades that can be made.
umm
Our lack of being able to develop young players and poor drafts…
Umm, wasn’t the draft in which Bower picked up both Collison in late first round and Thornton for two lowly 2nd round picks, the best draft that any general manger had that year??
I mean, I understand people are upset about Marcus Thornton. But you can’t both be upset about Marcus Thornton and still say we got nothing but bad drafting.
Also, didn’t Bower pick CP with the 4th pick in 2005 which turned out to be easily the best player in that draft?
Sure, people will say that he also picked Hilton Armstrong and Julian Wright, two marginal pros. But when you also get CP and Collison and MT, does it really matter?
Don't forget Cedric Simmons.
Hornets had 2 lottery picks in ’06 and came away with squat. Add that to Wright in ’07 and it says a lot about why this team cannot get over the hill. That coupled with huge contracts to aging SFs are the chief reason why this team is not a contender.
(I would say some would argue that SAC had a better draft in ‘09 (Evans, Casspi), but I’d lean towards the Hornets because of the value they got where they picked.)
Technically
They were lottery picks, but I’d love to see an evaluation of how often picks 12-16 are servicable players in the NBA Draft. Typically, unless you’re drafting in the top 5 every year (and I’m thankful the team is not), you’re going to have just as many hits as you do misses.
"You play to win the game."
by MrWayneKeller on May 3, 2011 1:32 PM CDT up reply actions
The odds of getting a rotation player are not very high
at that point in the draft, however getting 3 shots at it in 2 years and whiffing every time is pretty bad.
Also Technically
I think Simmons was picked at 15 or 16. At that point, he’s not a lottery pick.
"You play to win the game."
by MrWayneKeller on May 3, 2011 1:35 PM CDT up reply actions
Anyways
My point is that the team went into the “abyss” of the top 5 of the draft and came away with Chris Paul. I’ll live with that over missing on the 12th or 13th pick two years in a row.
"You play to win the game."
by MrWayneKeller on May 3, 2011 1:36 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't give the FO much credit for CP3, if any
By draftboards at the time, every team in the league was picking him top 5. And we got lucky that he turned out to be one of the top 3 players in the NBA from 2005-2011.
I think that is largely irrelevant
The point is that Bower picked him and he has been the best PG in the NBA. The rest is just equivocating.
Sure, it would have been more brilliant if Bower had “found” CP in the 2nd round, but sometimes, using your common sense is just as important as being a genius.
Draft boards are only of minor relevance.
Not arguing any of that
I’m saying that Bower made the pick 99% of GMs would have made. In my eyes, that doesn’t make the pick “smart.”
I view it like this
When there is such universal consensus on a player/pick (esp. after Deron and Marvin were off board), you can only make the safe pick or the dumb pick. That Bower opted for safety (compounded because it was also a need position) doesn’t speak to his talent evaluation.
Yeah, sure, we can be happy that he didn’t draft at a different position when point guard was a hilariously bad need position and we can be happy that he took the best overall player remaining at that position according to everybody… but again, being content with the pick does not equate to having to give tremendous credit for the pick either.
Was Point Guard Really A Need Position
When we already had the 30th greatest playter in franchise history on the squad?
:)
"You play to win the game."
by MrWayneKeller on May 3, 2011 2:00 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Well
Evans was a very high lottery pick. It’s not that surprising that he turned out to be a good player—though his 2nd season was a lot rougher than his first. MT who put up as good or better numbers than Evans in the limited games they played together, was an obscure 2nd rounder—most 2nd rounders never pan out and in fact many don’t even play any games in the NBA. Casspi was a good pick of course.
Still, depsite what you said about Cedric Simmons, Armstrong and Wright, Bower picked arguably the best point guard in the NBA and had the best draft of all teams in 2 years ago. That alone is sufficient to to boost his talent evaluation toi at least average and far higher than the abysmal that ppl here often make him out to be.
Also, don’t forget that he also picked Brandon Bass in the 2nd round. A very good pick again considering what I said above about the fate of most 2nd round picks. Did he also pick J.R. Smith? I’d have to double check it. J.R. (admittedly one of my least favorite players) has only been so so in this league, but there’s no doubt that he has talent.
It’s a mixed bag all in all, not the horrible situation that many ppl make it out to be.
I don't give much credit to Bower for Paul
They had to pick him there. Draftboards universally had Paul and Deron Williams in the top 4, and Utah essentially made the decision for us (and obviously the wrong decision for themselves, heh)
doesn't matter
GMs have screwed up all sorts of high picks regardles of draft boards.
I don’t consider draft boards or common concensus to be of much relevance really.
So Bower had the good sense to go with the common wisdom? I’m perfectly ok with giving him credit for that!
Right, but not too much credit
It’s not like he identified a player that nobody else thought highly of is my point.
I think the Collison or Thornton
picks were much, much better than the Chris Paul pick in terms of showing a GM’s above-average capability to evaluate talent
That's Fair
But he could have been like Atlanta’s GM and stupidly passed up on him. I give him a ton of credit in that sense.
"You play to win the game."
by MrWayneKeller on May 3, 2011 1:45 PM CDT up reply actions
also
By the same token, people usually assume that immediately after Julian Wright was a long line of brilliant players all of which turned out to be All-Stars. Nobody bothers to actually check the the options bower actually had with that pick.
In summary, they weren’t that great.
Wright
Looked like something after his first year in the league. His halted development still baffles me.
"You play to win the game."
by MrWayneKeller on May 3, 2011 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions
I Always Liked
Bristow. Just a random comment here.
"You play to win the game."
by MrWayneKeller on May 3, 2011 1:45 PM CDT up reply actions
Oh
And the reason MT5 is the worst and most egregious out of the bunch was because he turned out to be everything we thought he was and maybe a little more. From a locker room peacemaker, to a passionate player, to a fan favorite, to a Louisiana loving kid, he had all the intangibles (although he didn’t speak them so eloquently all the time).
The dude came back for the playoffs and cheered the Hornets on. Give me a break. Name me one player you know of outside of him that has done that when he got traded 2 months ago. Dude loved this city, this area, this team, this fanbase, and Monty didn’t even come close to giving him a fair shake.
Saddest part is, when Monty was signed I remember how excited we were that we had a coach that could develop MT5.
yup unfortunately
we all thought monty was great at player development when he came and we were badly wrong
I've got no problem rehashing topics
as it’s better to re-exam a situation once emotions have cooled. Initially, I wasn’t happy with the Thornton trade mainly because he was never given a fair shake under the new regime. However, looking back, I really believe that would have never worked out even if he had.
Thornton is a player who is obviously more at ease in an offensive system. That part is easy. Thornton seems to have proven in his young career that he needs touches to be effective. Last year and the short stint with the Kings falls in line with this thinking. So the natural question is why didn’t Monty make him an integral part in our offensive gameplan. It would have undoubtedly been a better option rolling with him getting the largest number of touches than Ariza, Green or even Belinelli.
Yep, you know it, it was his defense. Upon taking over, Monty made it clear we were going to attempt to be consistently great on at least one side of the floor. No, he wasn’t putrid the entire time he was in a Hornets uniform, but he really put himself behind the eight ball by skipping out on the voluntary summer workouts and getting off to a bad start. Sure, perhaps Monty/Demps/other core players should have attempted to motivate him to come (maybe they did?). Unfortunately though, it didn’t work out this way so we can’t let him off the hook. He made his bed so consequently he should get more blame than most of us have given him. Besides, as I’ve said in the past, we still don’t know for certain if their were other instances where he clashed with coaches or players.
But Caleb, to your statement that you’re pretty sure he could succeed in any system given the chance, I’m not buying. The Kings were never confused with a solid defensive team last season but Thornton might have been their worst guy with consistently big minutes? At SG, Marcus’ opponents had an eFG% of 56.1. Yuck. Yeah, I know SSS applies (small sample size). Perhaps Thornton could have evolved into a decent defender with us. We’ll never know, but at least I’m not going to remain miffed with Monty. Had Thornton showed a bigger committment to a team whose ultimate goal was to win now, he’d still likely be a Hornet today.
Even if his defense was/is absolutely terrible
he is still more valuable than either Marco or Willie Green. This team did not need anymore “defensive stoppers” on the wing (not that Belinelli or Green would be confused as such). They needed someone who could create his own shot and put points on the board when Chris was on the bench or on the games he decided to stand in the corner and watch the Willie and Trevor show. The league is filled with guys with no defensive reputation who still play vital roles on good teams. Jason Terry and Jamal Crawford come to mind. Maybe Thornton’s ideal role is a bench scorer and not a starter. That would be fine. But until you find a long-term solution to start at the 2, he was a decent stop-gap, and by far the best answer for that position on this team.
I agree with you
However, I think a huge point of emphasis many of us downplay is that Monty’s defensive scheme was really “my way or the highway”. Since Green or Marco simply gave more effort (especially early in the season when we were winning), they got the benefit of playing time. Monty was more interested in getting it right on the one end regardless (obviously) if it came at a cost offensively.
This, the summer workouts, possible Thornton’s add’l attitude, team win now mentality and the availability of a decent big all played a part in having our best solution at the 2 getting traded away. The bottom line this season was to prove to CP3 we are a viable contender. Really a tough set of circumstances led to Marcus’ departure.
I think I basically agree
Pretty much sums up what I think.
Thornton, a talented player who can be great in the right situation. But it just didn’t seem like the right situation for him. Partly the fault of the system and a little bit the fault of Thornton.
We got a good player in return however who is our best low post scorer and I’m down with that.
It's not so much that I think he can absolutely succeed in any system...
I just think it’s a huge leap to assume that he can only succeed in a certain type of system. I think good basketball players, are, generally speaking… good basketball players. Which is not to say system doesn’t have an effect, but that talent/skill/whatever tends to show no matter the system.
I understand your point
but there have always been two kinds of coaches. One type tries to fit guys into his preconcieved system ala Greg Popovich or Phil Jackson. The other tries to figure out the best possible way to make use of his pieces ala Doug Collins or George Karl. I’m still yet to be convinced that one method is ultimately better than the other, but for our matter, I think we can agree Monty is a system guy (not surprising considering his background). Consequently, it isn’t difficult to fathom a good player who is sort of limited dimensionally struggle. As I’ve said, I think it was more than just lousy defense that did Marcus in, but we’ll likely never know. At least he’s gotten a chance to develop elsewhere while we got a valuable player in return.
I think this post is not only correct, but appropriate.
Should we “let go” questions about offensive schemes? Should we “let go” questions about Chris’ passivity this year? No. Nor should we ignore the fact that, again, our biggest hole is at the 2. But guess what? We had a stellar 2 that we gave away.
People that focus on the Landry trade are looking at the end of the equation, hindsighting DX’s injury, and not doin what we are supposed to be doing: evaluating Monty. There is no doubt that he failed to make a young player into what he wanted. At the very least, he should have been a 6th man gunner, the he’ll with defense, a la Terry or Smith on Dallas and Denver, repectively.
Thornton was and is a special player. Anyone watching him could see that. Lots of people were frustrated and upset by Monty’s usage of him and Dell trading him. With good reason. Monty’s grade here: F. Though, to be clear, I give him a B+ overall, so I’m not a Monty hater. Just believe his rotations were wrong.
by m-W on May 3, 2011 11:01 AM CDT via mobile reply actions 1 recs
Another thing that I took for granted
was Monty’s complete lack of effort in trying to use Peja. Seeing him still contribute in the playoffs has changed my outlook on his handling. Is there any question that a lineup featuring Ariza AND Peja starting on the wings would have been more effective in the playoffs? Not in my mind. I was at peace with that move when it appeared that we would make a move in the future with the trade exception and expiring contracts that we received. After seeing the season come and go without using a single one of those “assets,” I have to deem that as an outright failure as well.
so much politics in NBA
I wonder how much comes down from front office as far as money/player play time decisions?
Do they play a guy more when shopping him?
Is a coach TOLD they are getting rid of players in the future due to money…so why play him?
The real information is not given to us poor fans.
We are just supposed to support and cheer…then emotionally move on after the team does something….
I sucks being us!
Personally
I thought that Ariza/Peja were going to be our starting wings coming into the season.
However, correct me if I’m wrong, didn’t Peja have injury issues in the early goings? Hard to say Monty was 100% at fault here.
He did at some point
but he was healthy for a good chunk of his time here as well and still never played.
i miss the peja heads, but not so much peja
he’s doing better in DAL for some reason, but I mean he was a 6’10 guy who rebounded fewer than 4 per game. I think Emeka, Aaron Gray, and Mbenga could grab more rebounds in one-half of a game if they only sat in a chair under the rim. Oh and the nagging bad back issues, he is just so creaky, he’s such a good-natured guy, and was a blast to watch when he was actually “on”, but he could just disappear for games
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on May 3, 2011 7:21 PM CDT up reply actions
he's not alone...or are the Hornets
when it comes to making these mistakes.
And after all, I really wonder how many great coaches had trouble initially in the pros with every part.
Rotations. he game.
Time out…the whole speed of t he game.
Player development is a tough one. The pressure as a new coach to impress your boss, the press and that incredibally abusive and fickle fan!
My lord how hard it must be!
Even reaching the pro player is a skill in itself! These boys make more money tha the coach when stars.
So doing what he did with the players and organization was nothing short of a miracle.
I think he learned this year.
I KNOW I saw a different Monty the second half than I did the first.
I am very sure we will see an even better Monty next year.
and how many teams historically messed up
with player trades?
I mean the REASON I am even here with you guys is the Bulls traded my man Gray.
They really depressed me for years when they traded Miller.
And even trading Sefalosha!
Hell…they traded Chandler and after all those years trying to develop him from HS!
So…we move on????
CP3 > MT5
I am a Marcus Thornton fan. But I am a MUCH bigger Chris Paul Fan. Chris Paul is by far my favorite player in the league. And you know what? The Lakers are my favorite TEAM. I LIVE in OC, CA, right next to LA. And most people round here would DIE to have CP come to LA.
Not me. I love seeing him in a NEW ORLEANS Hornet uniform. I would DIE to go to NOLA for a weeks vacation and catch a Hornet game while I’m there, and meet CP.
But that’s besides the point.
There are fans who go through sports with blinders on. Only looking at the good. And not looking at the bad. Marcus Thornton sold those blinders at every Hornets home game. I am a fan of his, but something I see that people refuse to acknowledge is that there is an OBVIOUS relationship strain between him and Chris Paul. For whatever reason, those two DONT see eye to eye.
People keep blaming Monty for everything… Well, I honestly believe CP had more to do with MT riding pine, and getting traded then anyone. And there were reports around the time that MT did get traded that he DID have locker room issues with CP and Willie Green.
To me. Keeping CP happy should be the utmost importance. Again, I’m an MT fan, and I hope the Kings move to Anaheim so I can get season tickets, and an MT5 Royals jersey so I can watch the kid tear it up.
But I know that he is an empty player with empty stats. He will never win an award or make an all star team. He is a similar version to Monta Ellis, but not quite as good. And Monta couldn’t even make the All Star team. Yet CP is a top 5 player in this league who WILL lead a team to at least one title in his career.
The Saints are my favorite football team. Watching them win a championship was awesome for the team, and the City of New Orleans. I think the city deserves a NBA Championship too.
Pout all you want about losing MT5. But you gotta learn to take the blinders off, and realize sometimes you gotta take 1 step back to take 2 steps forward.
by AgentZiko on May 3, 2011 12:10 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
I have seen next to nothing that suggests a rift b/t CP and Marcus
I remember after a game that Thornton won for the Hornets in the 4th quarter CP even tweeted that his name (in all caps). Also, the thought that anyone would be benched for not getting along with Willie Green is laughable.
He won an award last year by the way, making 2nd team All-Rookie.
Lastly, cheering for a city to lose their team is vile.
Maybe not a rift
but a different viewpoint by both players. I was going to state this in my argument above but decided not to – glad AgentZiko brought it up though. Remember this line by Chris Paul?
We had to help him to understand that last year was last year.
Very telling IMO. It’s why I said it could also be important that some other things happened behind the scenes that we weren’t privy to…
Yeah I have no problem with that comment
If Marcus had to be straightened out, then it is Chris and David’s job to do so. He’s a second year player that only played under a lame duck coach. I just think that those types of comments in no way can be stretched to a “it’s him or me” type of situation that Ziko is portraying.
yeah I think ultimately there is a good case for "inferencing from the unseen"
the signs all pointed that the team was re-orienting itself philosophically and there was just something off in Thornton’s game that was not jiving with the big picture. I just hope this topic can be put to rest because I feel like, however much work we’re all putting into our arguments, this is uniquely a topic that fundamentally, when it’s distilled into its finest form for those on all sides of the “What is Marcus Thornton?”, is always going to depend largely on things that we know probably were going on backstage but we’ll never know about in terms of their content and substantive nature, and we just end up talking past each other on this topic
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on May 3, 2011 7:19 PM CDT up reply actions
Nope again.
Skill is skill. Put all the rest behind you. Play your heart out. Truth has out. MTnow23 is good. Always was. Always will be.
I agree with this comment more than any other
I like the kid too! Just don’t think he’s an adequate player for a good team (yet, subject to whether he matures his game some more), especially for a good team with our particular system, and more than anything, want to see CP3 happy, and wish Thornton the very best, I hope he turns out to be a stud player for a good team someday
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on May 3, 2011 7:02 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm going to have to look for the links
But I actually posted multiple links about it on Hornets247 when it happened and we had a thorough discussion regarding it and CP’s quotes on it.
I Just Want To Ask
Without jumping into this because this has generated too much discussion on here but I just want to ask…. at what point should Monty have sacrificed his efforts with the entire team to explicitly accomodate Thornton’s offensive game? I’m not being sarcastic at all. I think that Monty created a system that was best for the entire squad, tried to fit Thornton in it and Thornton didn’t. So I want to ask that in a legitimately civil manner.
"You play to win the game."
by MrWayneKeller on May 3, 2011 12:24 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
at what point should Monty have sacrificed his efforts with the entire team to explicitly accomodate Thornton’s offensive game?
That’s waaay too black and white. There were certainly ways to improve Marcus’ game without “sacrificing” the rest of the team.
I have no crticisims at all about his defensive system
but to say that this team’s offense was “best for the entire squad” is laughable. The Hornet offense at it’s best was average and at its worse was putrid. If accommodating Marcus meant switching that mess up, then yippee.
I'm Trying
To speak in a civil manner.
If accommodating Marcus meant switching that mess up, then yippee.
You don’t have to address my statement like I’m a dumbass. I’m not. Just talk basketball is all I’m asking.
"You play to win the game."
by MrWayneKeller on May 3, 2011 12:31 PM CDT up reply actions
Also
If you can find my quote that said the offensive system was best for the entire squad then go ahead. I simply stated the system, which refers to both sides of the ball, and left it at that.
There are no unspoken implications in my posts honestly.
"You play to win the game."
by MrWayneKeller on May 3, 2011 12:32 PM CDT up reply actions
Honestly
I am not nearly well-versed enough to come up with an offensive scheme that certain players could excel in. Also, I’m not trying to come off as antagonistic, and I apologize if I have been. I know that there are tons of starting and contributing NBA players that are not only not plus defenders, but also defensive liabilities. Monty’s work on the team defense this year was impeccable. My criticism is that he concentrated solely on that end of the game. He did an outstanding job turning around that defense, but much like a great pitching staff that receives no run support, the team was limited by it’s offensive sets and the players who were on the court. To keep up the baseball analogy, the Hornets almost had to throw a perfect game to get a win. When you have a player like Chris Paul who can make up for a bad offense, you can still win 50 games and get to the playoffs. My opinion on this is that only concentrating on defense at the expense of the offense is no better than the styles of D’Antoni or even Nellie, albeit in the other direction. It takes both to win games. Monty’s inability to find roles for a talented scorer like Thornton or a dead-eye shooter like Peja, add a bit of tarnish to the great job he did this season. I believe that was the purpose of this story, and I agree 100%.
Sure
I can see that. Obviously I think a big reason why Ariza continued to just put up horrible shots this season was because he was on the court so much simply for defensive purposes. Monty’s offense left a lot to be desired but I must say that at the end of the season we saw significant progress in the team’s offense. Thornton just, unfortunately, wasn’t around at that point to be a part of it.
"You play to win the game."
by MrWayneKeller on May 3, 2011 12:50 PM CDT up reply actions
Such As?
I’m seriously asking.
"You play to win the game."
by MrWayneKeller on May 3, 2011 12:30 PM CDT up reply actions
Put him on the court for one.
That tends to help. Also, consistent minutes and PT that was not part of a 3 guard lineup that involves Willie Green whose assist % is almost HALF of what Thornton’s is. Think about that. It hurts my brain to do so.
That's Fair
Look I’m no Willie Green idolizer. I like him, but I dont love him. I cuss him a lot more than I did Thornton when I was waching the games. I liked Thornton a lot. I really wanted him to succeed in New Orleans (in fact, I was going to get a jersey for him and an Ariza jersey for my girlfriend… good thing I hesitated after the preseason) but the fact of the matter is he didn’t.
Willie had stretches this season where his minutes shuffled too. I’m not sure if he got any DNP-CDs but I remember Rohan even touching on the topic where he would get consistent single digit minute games and then he’d be starting all of a sudden. As I said, Monty’s whacky bench rotations weren’t just a hindrance to Thornton. It affected everyone. To single out Thornton and say we should feel sorry for him and not for anybody else is kind of taking this too personally.
BTW Thornton’s assist percentage with the Hornets was at 10.3, Willie’s was at 7.6. Neither are really blowing me away. Thornton’s certainly wasn’t double what Willie’s was. Also, Thornton’s usage rate with the team was at 25.6%, which was a good 5 percentage points higher than what Willie wound up with. Willie’s offensive game was inconsistent at the very, very most generous best….. but Thornton’s was too. He had an offensive rating of 99, produced 0 win shares, etc. He had moments to solidify a spot in the rotation earlier as well when Willie’s sister passed on and he played awful during that stretch. Maybe he was pressing? I guess. But that’s on him mentally then.
Thornton played better in Sacramento. I don’t think anyone can argue he’s an inefficient player, he’s obviously not, but it is arguable that his numbers are facilitated by a offense without structure or limitations. He’s going to get great, efficient numbers. Can he do that in a role where he’s not touching the basketball everytime on the court?
The team needed his offense badly and he fell out of Monty’s good graces. I’m upset about it too. But who are any of us to say that Monty should certainly forgive Thornton and put him over Green regardless of what effort Green made to learn the system and play within the role that Monty gave him. Thornton was adapting very well by the time of his trade. I’m upset about it. But he brought the team a high level front court option, something Green couldn’t do. I get why the deal was made.
And to evaluate Thornton and Green isn’t even the fair comparison. The best comparison is to evaluate Thornton and Landry in their respective roles to the team in my own opinion.
"You play to win the game."
by MrWayneKeller on May 3, 2011 12:45 PM CDT up reply actions
Sorry If I Seemed To Ramble
I’m just trying to make a point that I don’t hate Thornton at all, in fact he was my favorite player on the team after David West, but I’m not going to ever put him before my appreciation for the team is all.
"You play to win the game."
by MrWayneKeller on May 3, 2011 12:46 PM CDT up reply actions
Nor have I
He’ll always be one of my favorite’s in the league, but I’d never cheer for him to beat the Hornets at any point.
I disagree with that last statement
By electing to trade Marcus you have effectively chosen Willie/Marco over him. It is tough to compare players in different roles/positions. If you ask me whether a bench-warming Thornton or a 6th man Landry is more valuable, of course I’d go with Landry. My issue is that Marcus was warming the bench to begin with. If given the choice b/t watching Marcus rot on the bench in NOLA or excel in Sactown, I’d always choose the latter. However, I will always be disappointed that it came to that decision in the first place.
Yeah I agree with this
By moving MT5, the decision for him over Green and Marco was implicitly made.
That doesn’t mean that Green was going to get us Landry (he wasn’t) or that Landry is better than Thornton. But the decision to trade Thornton did end the positional debate at SG for the team.
Yeah
That’s cool. I meant in terms of the value each guy brought to the team. If we’re to compare Thornton to Green and Marco then yeah he’s better. And they were chosen over him. But he was brought in to get Landry and that’s why I would compare what both players brought to the team.
But y’all are right.
"You play to win the game."
by MrWayneKeller on May 3, 2011 1:00 PM CDT up reply actions
For starters
Playing him extensively off ball the way Bower did last year. Monty isolated Thornton behind the perimeter way too much for my liking, both playing into Thornton’s proclivity to take long twos (the least efficient shot in basketball) and his tendency to not pass much (because it’s tough to set guys up from isolated on the perimeter).
Involving him in screen-rolls and encouraging him to kick on the drive by. Thornton had an absurd number of charges in the paint this year; the fact that it didn’t improve through the season was very disheartening.
Playing him with Chris Paul on the floor, and more importantly, allowing Paul to set up for him. This was something severely lacking in Thornton’s time here both in terms of lineup and play calling. Willie Green benefited from Paul’s play a lot this year, an advantage MT5 never really had.
Not playing him at SF. Almost 15% of Thornton’s minutes came at the 3 this year. A mismatch offensively and defensively.
Are some of these things on Marcus? Absolutely. But player development is two-sided, and I personally feel like Monty Williams’ involvement in Marcus’ growth as a player was severely lacking.
That's Fair
Monty’s track record in Portland speaks for itself. For anyone to say that he isn’t a good evaluator of talent or that his player development skills suck is kind of ludicrous and without merit. Maybe as the Head Coach, he wasn’t allowed the extensive one on one work that he was as an assistant in Portland and it limited what he could do for Thornton exclusively?
As a potential coach (that’s what I’m going to college for), you find ways to get your best players on the floor and I get that. I see where he failed there and I won’t argue that.
"You play to win the game."
by MrWayneKeller on May 3, 2011 12:48 PM CDT up reply actions
I mean, that's another thing
you find ways to get your best players on the floor
You’re right. And I see Monty’s rationale that Thornton, as he plays currently, was not one of those best players. Our argument is that he would have been, given proper development and system, but maybe with the team wanting to win as much as possible this season, that wasn’t realistic.
Overall though
I just can’t shake the feeling that Monty didn’t do enough research/didn’t know enough about the players on his team that he didn’t acquire (Smith, Green, Mbenga, etc).
He didn’t play Gray for his rebounding until his back was against the wall. Thornton’s great rookie season seemed to carry no weight whatsoever with him. And his quote about Peja (“I was shocked to find out that he was one of the best shooters ever”) is just… yeah.
Yeah
His rotations were driving all of us mad at the start of the season. They were still weird in the postseason too.
Is it fair to say that there is no more polarizing topic amongst Hornets fans than Marcus Thornton? I think even more than the Chris Paul trade siutation this has just split the fanbase up like no other.
"You play to win the game."
by MrWayneKeller on May 3, 2011 1:01 PM CDT up reply actions
Ah I forgot to mention Gray up there
I said it earlier on twitter. Monty’s refusal to work with guys that were on board before he got here (outside the “big 3”) annoyed me all season. Thornton-Peja-Gray deserved a little more than they got here. Though, Bayless was one of Monty’s guys and they pulled the plug on that experiment pretty quickly.
Didn't Think Of It Like That
Monty’s refusal to work with guys that were on board before he got here (outside the "big 3") annoyed me all season.
Makes me wonder whether or not the team will even look to bring Gray back (although I really hope they do). And thank goodness the Bayless experiment got unplugged early. It was tough watching him play this year.
"You play to win the game."
by MrWayneKeller on May 3, 2011 1:05 PM CDT up reply actions
He has a player option I believe. He'll be back
Yeah I have no issue with the Bayless trade. He was not a good fit. Frankly I think this team can’t afford to have two wing players on the court at the same time who can’t shoot at least 35% from 3. One big reason I’d rather keep Marco than Willie.
Gray is gone..IMO
He is not what Monty wants as a player.
He likes the more Okafor/Noah style centers.
He wants centers that fly high outside then get back quikly.
These are great…except come playoff time.
I will always stick yo my years of watching NBA and expect big men to play big man basketball. This new style od fleet of foot centers is beauty of the mind…not real basketball.
Again, there are a few exceptions…but thet are rare breeds and highly expensive. In fact, they are the stars of their teams.
I am expecting Gray to be gone.
I think there are things to be said for both styles of centers
And I hope very much that Gray returns. Personally, I think the situation with the lockout makes it decently likely he’ll stick around
unless he gets offered...more.
i think gray would stay for a little less money IF he felt he would become a part of the offense.
Monty would need to dicuss this with him personally.
But if not…Gray would go where teams want big centers involved with plays
I don't think anyone
is going to offer him anything much (money or years) with the CBA unresolved. Seems silly.
well...not for me come playoff time
there is no fleet footed center matchup against Bynum types.
well
Willie Green benefited from CP but Marco benefitted more. For Wiillie, you have to weigh that against the large amount of time he spent with Jack as his “play maker”…
I think aside from the fact that it's been several months since the trade, *this* is why this "debate" has lost its relevance regardless of the merits of either side
by “this” I mean:
But player development is two-sided, and I personally feel like Monty Williams’ involvement in Marcus’ growth as a player was severely lacking.
I think when the arguments are ultimately going to have to be distilled to that (which could be legitimate, you may be right! Or may not be true, and you could be wrong – we’ll never know… at least for a long time, if ever re that), it’s just not going to produce anything fruitful. We have no idea these important dimensions of how Monty decided to organize our SG-soup, and I just don’t think it’s a productive discussion when we’re, when the arguments have all been distilled to their finest form, going to be forced to speculate on what are personnel issues that go beyond what we’re going to be able to evaluate out here.
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on May 3, 2011 7:09 PM CDT up reply actions
And Don't Forget to Blame Chris Paul ^^
As soon as that whole mess went down with CP’s agent demanding that the Hornets upgrade their roster towards “win now”, I think it was patently obvious that Collison and Thornton were out the door, it was only a question of when and for who.
This season was not about “player development” and CP and his agent and their antics last summer are as much to blame for that as anyone.
by MZURK on May 3, 2011 1:19 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
thanks CP
for blowing up the youth on our roster only to leave us with our D’s in our hands in a year
yeah maybe
but the reminder, looking back on it, makes me bitter all over again. And while harsh, is it not accurate? Time will tell, but I think it very well could be. If CP leaves us in 1 year or less, shipping out Marcus and Collison in an attempt to appease him could be the death of this team’s competitive chances for a good 5 years +. Do I blame the Hornets for trying to keep Paul? Not really, you gotta do everything you can to keep your main horse. If he leaves, though, I’ll seriously question how much Monty/Dell’s fingers were on the pulse of what CP3 wants. Sometimes you gotta make tough decisions as a business for the better. If CP leaves, there’s no way you can convince me that Ariza long term and Landry short term were worth the sacrifice.
there is that risk ^^
Guess we’ll have to see how it all plays out.
I believe though that Landry will get resigned. Hopefully for around 5 to 6 mill.
He’s a good player to have on the roster and at that price, he would make sense.
you think West takes his player option
now that his knee is in shambles? Or does he test the open market with a serious injury? May be wise for D West to play a year after the injury and go into the open market once he’s proven he’s recovered. If he decides to take his player option this season and remain a Hornet, I think that hurts the chances of Landry re-signing
a little tongue in cheek
Obviously I don’t BLAME CP for that we lost Collison and Thornton, but still, I think there’s unfortunately a little truth to it ^^
Cheers.
exactly
and that was an incredibly shortsighted move by the Hornets. Collison and Thornton could have been the future. Instead, we’re strapped to Ariza’s horrible contract and we could easily already be done with Landry’s services. I just hope Dell and Monty are more aware of Chris Paul’s true intentions than they let on in the media.
I Really Don't Know
Whether or not Darren Collison would have been great for this Hornets team in the limited minutes he certainly would have seen playing behind Chris Paul. I get that you want o keep the young talent, but are you suggesting, Andrew, that the team should have shipped off Paul and kept Collison adn Thornton instead?
"You play to win the game."
by MrWayneKeller on May 3, 2011 1:35 PM CDT up reply actions
Good followup Q
I think that’s logically the next thing we have to ask ourselves (same thing CLE went through with LeBron)
I don't feel CP3's situation is entirely similar
It was well known Lebron was going to evaluate everyone once he was a free agent. I don’t ever remember conferences with him speaking glowingly about the team/the coach and the future – certainly not the last season. Meanwhile, pretty much all season, Chris Paul has been a staunch Monty Williams supporter and has publicly stated many times he really likes the direction of this organization.
Many have
and it’s probably preferable to CP and West leaving in the next two years, leaving us with ill-fitting and overpaid role players (a la the Cavaliers). However, there is no way in hell you can’t take that risk when dealing with a top 5 player.
yes, absolutely
I’m suggesting they should have shipped Chris Paul and held some team to a lion’s ransom in exchange. A couple of things played into us not doing that: A. instability of the franchise and B. waning fan interest. New Orleans needed a competitive team NOW. With the current state of the franchise we couldn’t afford a couple rebuilding years. So I understand why the gamble on Paul was taken. In a small market though, if you are a small and stable business (which the Hornets are not), you absolutely get rid of Paul. The signs were there that he wants to peace. Have his feelings changed or were they inaccurately reported? None of us really know. But yeah, I’d rather have a youthful core (Collison & Thornton) bolstered by even more promising budding youngsters you get in return for Paul.
Now, if Paul leaves us, make no mistake about it, the franchise is in shambles. We’ll have a bunch of role playing veterans like Ariza, Okafor, Jack and Willie Green trying to play #1 scorer. It’ll be a disaster. And those picks we gave up for Bayless (er, Jack) don’t help either. Demps had to do that not only to keep Paul but to save the Hornets chances of being in New Orleans. If fans didn’t come to games, we were done… and if CP3 was shipped out, fans wouldn’t have bought in to the long term building. It’s a brutal position to be in…
unfortunately, trading Paul was absolutely the right move. And if he leaves, you’ll see how bad the team will be for at least 3 years because of it. AT THE VERY LEAST. So then the question will be, was it worth it? Hard to stay. Hopefully the Hornets in NOLA is a little more stable before he peaces
You have to remember though
that Paul’s value this last summer was at an extreme low point. Coming off surgery, didn’t look elite to close the season. Sure, value would have been received for him, but it would have been a classic sell low. I have a hard time imagining we’d have gotten more for him than Denver received for Carmelo (and Paul is a wildly better player than Carmelo when healthy).
fair point
and CP3’s value is much higher now than it was then, meaning a trade deadline ship out would return more quality.
But let me ask you this, and answer HONESTLY:
Would you prefer (assuming CP3 was ever traded):
A. A lower return for CP3 last offseason (which, still, would be a good return, let’s face it) with Marcus Thornton and Darren Collison on the roster
or
B. A higher return on CP3 before the next trade deadline with Ariza’s contract on the books and Landry already gone?
It is a good question
But we also have to consider this: the value of a player like Chris Paul is, no matter what, higher than the value of the return we get. You don’t win a title without having one of these players in my mind – LeBron, Wade, Paul, Howard. Those are the only players in the league you can build a team around without another big time All-Star and still get to the Finals. Right now at least. I’d put middle of the decade Duncan, Garnett, and Dirk on that list as well. Kobe, you need Pau or Shaq. Etcetera.
And in my mind, there’s tremendous value to having a player like that on the roster already. Sure, maybe you get 5 draft picks back for Paul. But the odds of drafting another Paul/LBJ/Wade/Howard are remarkably slim.
So the answer to that question is always tainted with the fact that Paul’s value cannot be equated in terms of return in a trade. And so it also means that there is inherently value to keeping Paul as long as you can, hoping pieces can fall together, regardless of if and when you’ll get a higher return, relative to other trading time periods.
yeah I hear ya
but the bottom line is this: you have to trust that your scouts have the ability to recognize talent. Maybe they aren’t always going to hit home runs, but you have to trust that your team is going to do a good job of turning those draft choices into productive players. It’s an inexact science but at the end of the day that’s how you build a winner as a small market because we’re never going to sign a free agent of Dwight Howard’s stature. That’s just never going to happen in New Orleans. Small markets anywhere in any league build through the draft, and they stockpile on picks. The small market teams that are successful are successful because they invest their dollars in solid talent evaluation. Once that talent because good, they ship it off to bigger markets for draft picks and start the process all over again. It’s what makes the Marlins successful. It’s what’s made the Saints successful (though they got really lucky landing Brees). It’s what’s made the Oakland A’s competitive. A lot of small clubs in european soccer stay competitive this way too. Sell a player at the height of his value and rebuild. This is the strategy for the Hornets that will ultimately make them good, so we have to trust our scouts.
That's the point though
Basketball isn’t soccer or football or baseball. You NEED a player of either Paul/LBJ/Wade/Howard’s ability or two of Kobe’s. You simply won’t win without them.
And even if you have the greatest scouts in the world, it doesn’t make too much a different to the original point because there’s an extremely limited, finite number of those players. You won’t win an NBA title by assembling above average players at every position except in extremely, extremely rare cases. You simply have to have a transcendent player in at least one position.
Yeah
That only happened once and I can’t see anything like that ever happening again. Unfortunately, stars are what win in this league.
"You play to win the game."
by MrWayneKeller on May 3, 2011 2:15 PM CDT up reply actions
Another Random Comment
I’m full of them considering the opinions I’ve given on Allan Bristow and Julian Wright on here (and this is totally distracting me from studying for my three finals in 21 hours stretch that begins tomorrow at 10 A.M.)….
…. however…
…. I always really liked Rasheed Wallace’s game. I know he wound up being a good player but I always thought he was going to be great. It’s a shame he never seemed to have it between the ears to truly maximize his talent. Because he really could do it all.
"You play to win the game."
by MrWayneKeller on May 3, 2011 2:26 PM CDT up reply actions
Just Look At The Spurs
Even now they’re getting terrific value at their selections (with George Hill, DeJuan Blair and even finding Gary Neal) but now that Tim Duncan is no longer playing at a superstar level, the team is in a very noticeable decline.
"You play to win the game."
by MrWayneKeller on May 3, 2011 2:14 PM CDT up reply actions
And that supports my point
that even if you are risking a catastrophic rebuilding period, you have to take that risk in order to possibly keep a player like Paul.
Cp3 saved basketball in this city
In New Orleans more than any other city, that carries with it its own mythology that can’t be disregarded. It has to be CP3 till the end.
by m-W on May 3, 2011 6:00 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
good points
I hear you and you’re starting to sell me. Paul is such a difference maker that the assumption is your franchise is in shambles no matter what if he’s gone (or at least high risk). You do what you can to hold onto him as long as you can. I agree with that. I think you’re saying that even if Paul leaves, it was worth the risk of peacing Collison and Thornton in an attempt to keep a player that good. In other words: one superstar > 3-4 solid young and budding nba starters
Yep, I think that's it
But I totally agree with you in that I hope the Hornets have as good a read on Paul’s intentions as they think they do..
now IF Paul stays long term and stays his whole career in NOLA
then i’ll admit that Demps absolutely made the right move. But I fear that he made a decision to sacrifice the future for now based on information he was hopeful for vs. information he was actually privy to. How clued into Paul’s inner circle are Monty and Dell? They kind of play dumb most of the time. Maybe they know more than they let on. But I wonder and I worry that they’re not clued into Paul’s wishes at all. If they aren’t, then it’s bad business to build your team around a player that you don’t know the intentions of.
After seeing Denver...
I kinda gree with Andrew in that if it were necessary to trade CP3, then do so by all means… we could rob a team of its best players like Denver did to the Knicks and have a semi-competitive team
Not saying we should, but if push comes to shove…
by Ezio_Auditore on May 3, 2011 5:59 PM CDT up reply actions
Denver
Dissapointed in the postseason though. They gave people some false hope but when the playoffs started the true, tested structure of an NBA playoff team was shown. Look how the Hornets, with less role players and one star, did against the Lakers opposed to how the Nuggets, with a ton of role players and no stars, did against the Thunder.
"You play to win the game."
by MrWayneKeller on May 3, 2011 6:19 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah
but I’m not ready to say Denver’s model won’t work. I’d like to see what that team can do with a full offseason/season together first.
You Won't See It
Most of those guys will opt out (Nene already says he wants to) and you have two guys on the squad in Nene and JR Smith who say they feel underappreciated by the squad. They won’t have the money to resign all the players they brought in hence why it’s a bad move.
"You play to win the game."
by MrWayneKeller on May 3, 2011 9:22 PM CDT up reply actions
there is that yes...
It’s not easy being a backup, and Collison was only so so as CP’s backup last year… so I think there’s some truth to what you say about the question of Collison’s fit in that role…
But
Consider the wrecking ball Collison, Thornton, and Wright (speed kills!) would have been on fast breaks, Peja trailing for the 3 at the PF position, and Gray as anchor.
Also, remember when Kobe demanded Lakers trade Bynum and Kupchak refused? Playere sometimes have to be refused.
by m-W on May 3, 2011 5:18 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
yeah I was surprised by his season w/ the Pacers
especially his low assist total. He definitely seemed to regress a bit this season. Still, if Paul planned to peace all along like the reports suggested last summer, I’d much rather Collison running the show in 2012 vs. A. Jarrett Jack or B. Some dude we pick up off the street. Let’s face it, we won’t get a good draft pick that will allow us to draft the PG of the future if Paul is playing the season prior
Should be noted
that his low assist total is also heavily a function of the offense Indiana ran. Routing the ball through Hibbert often and through other players… very dissimilar from the 2009-2010 Hornets who had no passing bigs to speak of.
still think he regressed this year a bit (maybe because of the offense being a poor fit)
and if that’s the case, shame on the Pacers for trading for a PG that doesn’t fit their system
Oh, he did, no doubt
At the very least, he didn’t improve, which, for a 22, 23 year old, can itself be seen as a sort of regression
I think he had a solid season
Considering everything, he had a solid season. his low assist totals can be partly explained by Pacers running their offense through their big man.
Also, he was hardly a disappointment. Maybe he wasn’t more than an average starting point guard, but that’s pretty good for a 21st pick 2 years ago.
I don’t know whether he didn’t improve. I just think it was his first full year as a starting point guard and there was an adjustment.
Yep
you almost have to throw out Collison’s numbers this season due to O’briens crazy offensive schemes.
perhaps
Perhaps. I used to also think that Collison was somewhat overrated. Still, he had a decent showing in his first year as a starting point guard and helped lead Indiana to the playoffs. If he improves even marginally from last season, he’ll be a pretty good player.
It’s pretty unusual for a 21st pick to already be starting in his 2nd year, especially at the poiunt guard position.
Ariza
I wouldn’t call Ariza’s contract “horrible”. He’s being paid at a mid level. His shooting most of the season was HORRIFIC, but overall, we got as serviceable starting player who had a pretty good first round playoff series. That’s not too bad for the price.
yeah it's less about the number
and more about the length. Ariza isn’t getting any better. I hear you though.
I'm with MZURK
I don’t mind Ariza’s contract one bit as he was a major reason our defense was so successful. Once he’s allowed to be that “garbage” guy as the 4th scorer, we won’t have to bear witness to so many awful shots/attempted shot creations. The fact he’s going to be 26 and his performance in the playoffs gives me enough hope.
CP3 gave a toast at a wedding he was invited to, his agent responded to public questioning, the media needed more hype to put on TV until they could talk steroids and Brett Favre
it’s just not necessary at all to lower the boom on, of all people, CP3. I find your comment unbelievable to read. CP3 had nothing to do with Marcus Thornton being traded, our front office and coach have a particular vision for the team you may not like, but however good CP3 is, this isn’t Cleveland. There’s no tail wagging the dog in NOLA
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on May 3, 2011 7:12 PM CDT up reply actions
hmm
You have a VERY different recollection of what happened last summer than me.
If you like, I can help refresh your memory with some links to various reports. In a nutshell, it was really a low point for the franchise and yes, of course it was CP and his agent that were at the center of creating that whole mess.
Go ahead, refresh my memory with links illustrating how you recall the timeline of events
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on May 4, 2011 6:27 AM CDT up reply actions
Here's a Good Start
Here’s a good history of the wholoe debacle.
http://www.sbnation.com/2010/7/21/1581408/chris-paul-trade-lakers-knicks-magic
Or just type in “Chris Paul Trade” or “Chris Paul demands Trade” into Goodle or Yahoo.
In a nutshell, sources close to Chris Paul informed media that Chris Paul wants to be traded. Chris Paul did nothing to quell or deny the rumors even as trade requests/proposals started to flood in.
Later to “clarify” he said that if NO isn’t “committed to winning” then he is definitely open to a trade.
He then also speculated what teams he would be open to being traded to if the Hornets aren’t “committed to winning”.
LeBron James helpful chimed in by wishing CP “good luck” and telling him to “do what’s best for you and your family”.
It became public that Leon rose, CP’s agent has started contacting other teams and the specific teams were named.
Chris Paul/CP’s agent, forced a meeting with management to talk about “the future of the team” and where it is headed. The meeting was for the purpose fo the management “selling” the team to Chris Paul and the direction that it will be going in. After said meeting, management went out of its way to insist that Chris Paul did not demand a trade.
Chris Paul adopted a two-pronged strategy: he personally released another statement saying he’s committed to NO but that he wants “to win”. At the same time, his agent said the Hornets have done nothing to improve the roster and basically blasted them.
NBA officially issued a letter warning teams to stop contacting Chris Paul.
I don't think I'll ever be able to fully let this go
I hate Dell Demps for shipping him off and I hate Monty for never giving him a real chance to succeed
"hate"
Is a tad extreme. I’m disappointed with how this turned out for sure, but I’m happy with out HC and GM going forward.
same way I feel
I really like Monty Williams, and Demps as well. I just don’t like how Thornton was handled.
anger management!
Hate? Really? Dude, chill out. I love certain players, but regardless how badly I would want them to stay on my team, I would never “hate” people for changing the makeup of a team.
The only exception would be Al “Skeletor” Davis. I think he drafted two guys nobody’s heard of because they ran track in high-school. That’s a guy who pulls strings that have no rational purpose. You know but even then, “hate”? No way. Relax guy, there’s no need to hate
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on May 3, 2011 7:14 PM CDT up reply actions
Do you guys agree
that if West picks up his player option (which I think we all agree is fairly likely given the injury), the chances of Landry returning diminish significantly?
not necessarily
I think that Landry understands that being a 40 minute starter is not necessarily his cup of tea. He’s probably best as a 20-25 minute guy, maybe a 6th man. and I think he would get that in New Orleans next year if West comes back.
Just my thought.
No
West is likely going to need most of next season to rehab so I don’t think his contract bears on Landry’s return. Rather, I think it and the new CBA will dicatate as to how much and how long we still retain Carl.
I think the bottom line is...
we can’t decide whether or not these trades were horrendous or amazing until a few things play out.
Best case: Chris Paul and D. West both re-sign long term, or at least CP3 does. Landry re-signs short term. The Hornets bolster the roster and get better and stay a playoff team, with CP3, for the better part of the next decade.
Worst case: CP3 and D. West are both gone within a year from the roster. Landry doesn’t re-sign. The Hornets don’t have a 1st round pick, and they’re left trying to compete with a starting lineup of Okafor-J.Smith-Ariza-Bellineli-Jack, while Collison becomes a 20-10 guy, CP3 wins a championship with the Knicks and Marcus Thornton averages 30ppg with a 20+ PER.
My guess is something in the middle will probably happen. Until we get the answers to where Paul is going, where West is going and where Landry is going, though, I think the Collison/Thornton trades should be left open for evaluation. I fear the worst and hope for the best, but I don’t trust that Dell and Monty did their homework here and I have a bad feeling it may blow up in their face.
right
It’s fun to discuss them now (and there’s nothing better to do^^), but I think you’re right. It will all depend on how things play out.
Will CP resign? Will Landry resign? Will MT continue playing like he did for 30 or so games this season? will West return?
A lot of open questions still. But it will be fun to continue talking ^^
I’m out for today. Good night all ^^ Keep the arguemtns flowing, that’s all we have right now…
here's my main thing
you always have to build a team with an eye towards the future. Always. That’s accentuated in a small market team. The moves the Hornets are making currently could not be more short sighted, and there’s a very real and serious risk that the future in mortgaged based on these moves. Collison and Thornton were absolutely brilliant draft choices, both shipped out after a year. It’ll all depend on if CP3 stays and I have reservations about that, we all should.
You need to balance both future and present
My opinion is that you risk mortgaging the future if there’s a chance you can hold onto a once-in-a-generation type of player like Paul. Odds are extremely stacked against you ever finding another one. Other Collisons or Thorntons are out there though. It’s a risk you have to take.
I think it's only worth the risk
if there’s a reasonable chance of keeping him. I’m not saying there is or isn’t, but I question how much Monty/Dell’s fingers are on the pulse of how realistic that is. Last summer, I felt like there was no chance of keeping him and they kind of blindly ignored that. My perception could be inaccurate, but that’s how it came off. Monty kind of shrugged and played dumb like “i dunno, he didn’t say those things to me, who knows?” After this season played out, I feel like there’s maybe a slightly better chance of keeping him, but I honestly have no idea. He could still feel very strongly about leaving. If he leaves and it seems clear we never really had a real shot at keeping him, then I’ll blame Dell mostly for not digging deeper in trying to get a feel for the odds earlier on. Now, if Paul truly genuinely meant what he said when he said “as long as the Hornets are committed to winning, I want to stay”, then the team has shown their mortgage the future to keep him happy and try to win now. It’s up to him to prove he meant that. My point is the risk you say is worth taking is only worth taking if there’s a glimmer of hope he’ll extend with the Hornets. For a while there I really wondered if there was any hope whatsoever. Is there a glimmer of hope now? Maybe? CP3 has never really made me feel good that there’s a chance he’ll stay. When asked about long term and he says “I’m just focused on the now” doesn’t really put my mind at ease.
First
you seem to be reluctant to give any trust to Demps/Williams. Second, I feel that if you followed the Hornets the entire year, you’d realize that what started as a glimmer of hope last off season has definitely expanded of CP3 re-signing with the Hornets. Everything appears to be trending positively so I feel it’s partially unwarranted of discussing this situation as though we’ve gone back in time and it’s the day after CP3’s toast at Anthony’s wedding.
anyway, good convo
and you guys have made me feel slightly better about the trades. Ultimately some things have to play out before I can fully formulate my opinion. I’m getting back to work now, and I hate you guys for destroying my productivity today. Just kidding, the break was welcome. Thanks for hearing me out and sharing your very articulate and valid opinions.
Absolutely
I’m generally thoroughly impressed at the level of conversation on this site, and this thread takes the cake.
More than 150 comments in a detailed Marcus Thornton discussion with calm, well-reasoned, and respectful arguments from every angle? Wow.
Yeah
I know I am very guilty of getting overly annoyed by the discussion but it never generated into anything personal today and everyone was able to say their piece and not be disrespectful about it.
Everyone deserves kudos.
"You play to win the game."
by MrWayneKeller on May 3, 2011 2:58 PM CDT up reply actions
Wow. I just read over that entire conversation. Great Stuff.
Like a lot of you guys already said, I think that we can’t actually decide on the outcome of this trade until a few years from now. A lot of things are going to happen to steer the franchise in one direction or another, and it isn’t really safe to judge anything at the moment. Personally, I wasn’t a fan of this trade at the time, and I’m still not, but I know that it could end up working out really well for the Hornets in the long run.
Not his kind of player
I jusy get the feeling that Marcus was not Monty or Dell Demps kind of player. Monty is button down shirts, Marcus is not…Don’t really see Josh Smith or other tattoo scholars in Hornets future either
BUCKETS IS THE GREATEST EVER!!!!
ANYONE WHO DISAGREES IS WRONG OR HIGH AND WRONG!!!!!!!!! TO SAY OTHERWISE IS A BETRAYAL IF ALL THAT IS HOLY!!!!!!!!!!
Hahahaha. Just kidding. Awesome discussion. The most intelligent and well-informed Hornets fans come here. Largely because this mysterious “Rohan” person is among the best in the business. Except when he doesn’t ban people for criticizing MTformer5. Just kidding. I’m not. No, I am. Just kidding.
by m-W on May 3, 2011 5:32 PM CDT via mobile reply actions 2 recs
Actually
a few of us have recently tossed his name around and it isn’t completely out of left field. Personally, I think we owe some of those Magic fans who bombarded us with CP3 trade possibilities a year ago. :)
Kings fan here, want to bring up one point
Tyreke and Thornton played 18 games together (Reke missed a big chunk of the season for treatment on plantar fasciitis, which severely hobbled him for the first part of the season). During those 18 games, the Kings went 9-9, with several wins against playoff teams and close losses that could’ve gone the other way.
That’s a huge difference for a team that finished the season with 24 wins. All I know is, when the Kings acquired and then unleashed Marcus Thornton, we became a drastically better team.
Author of the Pick and Scroll and NBA Mashups. Follow me on Twitter here.
He fits like a glove
in a high-octane offense that relies more on player creative than actually sets. Will be interesting to see if you guys develop an identity with all those promising youngsters. Oh, and major props that at this time the Kings are still in SAC!
YAY
is this done? I didn’t like re hashing the whole Marcus Thornton situation because it makes me soo depressed. :( but now that’s over(and you actually moved to discussing CP3 trades, THE SHAME! kidding. i’ll join in on the other convo’s during this Monty week :)
Here are my thoughts
1) Should have played Gray and Thornton as backups throughout the season. Probably cost us more wins by not doing so.
2) I would have traded CP3 and Okafor this past offseason to Orlando for Pietrus, Bass, Nelson, Gortat, and a 1st round pick. Would have given us solid starters/backups at nice contracts and Nelson could have started for 2 years before Collison was ready to take over. Bass and Gortat were signed for 4 years at cheaper deals, Nelson only for 2, and Pietrus for one year. Could have started Gortat, West, Pietrus/Peja, Thornton/Pietrus, and Nelson with Gray, Bass, Pietrus/Peja/Thornton, and Collison off the bench.
3) I would think about trading CP3 and maybe West this offseason to OKC for Westbrook and Ibaka. I don’t particularly like Westbrook, but I believe CP3 is ready to leave and Westbrook could get to be the number one guy which he desperately wants. Everyone else can focus on defense and making wide open shots while Westbrook does whatever. Just sign a couple more shooters and we should be fine.
Response
1) In a perfect world, many of us hoped for this, but there were a number of other circumstances you can’t ignore. Two biggies – Thornton starting the season just lost with defensive concepts and Gray poorly conditioned.
2) This trade to me would ensure the Hornets remain in bad mediocrity for a really long time. It’s been repeated over and over but it’s true – CP3’s are super rare. It’s highly unlikely we’d get either via trade or draft for a really long time.
3) Interesting but I can’t see either side wanting to make this deal.
by RedHopeful on May 4, 2011 10:12 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Fair response
1) Obviously Thornton had a bad preseason and I preferred to start Marco because of his shooting. However, I do think Monty made a mistake not playing Thornton off the bench ahead of Green. Also, Gray was poor conditioned last season, but seemed to be in decent shape this preseason. I just think Monty preferred Mbenga for defensive reasons. Still, maybe Gray got in better shape during the season as well.
2) I liked this trade for the following reasons. The guys we got from Orlando were solid players on nice contracts. Gortat is a solid starter and Bass is a solid backup both with 4 year contracts for 4-6 million a year. Pietrus was an expiring contract who can defend and shoot from the perimeter. Nelson is a solid starter signed for only 2 years allowing Collison to develop further before starting. Plus, we would have had West who is a borderline All-Star and Peja a solid backup and excellent shooter. Plus we still have Collison and Thornton who are young talents with potential to be very good players. This trade would give us flexiblity to add more talent around Thornton, Collison, and Gortat. CP3 is a rare talent, but his injury issue is still uncertain long-term, its highly unlikely he would re-sign with the Hornets, and I don’t think the team has enough room to build around CP3 especially with Okafor and Ariza’s contract and with trying to resign West. The team currently constructed makes it difficult to add more talent to compete with the upper tier teams.
3) I could see this trade happening. First, maybe Durant gets tired of Westbrook shooting too much and OKC looks to acquire a steadier PG like Paul who would definitely give Durant more looks. Also, OKC may want an interior scorer like West since Ibaka and Perkins are defensive-minded. A lineup of Perkins/West/Durant/Harden/Paul is pretty loaded. Also, the Hornets may want to start over and assume Paul won’t resign. they could acquire Westbrook who can score alot from the PG and acquire Ibaka who is long, athletic, and a terrific defender/rebounder. He would be a great fit for Monty’s defensive scheme and he can make an open jumper. Plus, we could use the extra money to sign perimeter shooters around Westbrook to open the lane. Guys like Ariza, Ibaka, and Okafor can focus on defense while Westbrook can do the heavy scoring.
If The Hornets
Trade Chris Paul for Russell Westbrook…. I may have a nervous breakdown.
"You play to win the game."
by MrWayneKeller on May 4, 2011 1:00 PM CDT up reply actions
Yes
1. I don’t agree. I believe that Monty used Gray and Thornton appropriately considering all circumstances. People often assume when a lpayer has a series of good games, that he could have always been doing if only he had been allowed to, but I think that is for the msot part incorrect. Sure, coaches do sometimes make mistakes, but reasonably successful coaches, and I think that Montry was “reasonably (not exceptionally)” successful, are successful because they put their players in a position to play well and avoid exposing them in situations or at times when they feel that the odds are stacked against them. Red mentions below a few of the circumstances which were probably significant factors for Motny not using MT/Gray earlier and more often.
2. I thin you raise good point in general — the issue of CP’s status should be carefully considered. This is an impotrant issue that needs to be carefully considered. I think you well clarified why in your post below and I also posted my further comments about that below.
Thx
Gonna be worse if CP3 leaves by FA
Which I think he will. I really don’t think Demps doesn’t have enough room to improve the team. Paul may like the city and the coaching staff, but he wants to win more and not just make the playoffs and get stomped in the 1st round. I don’t see what Demps can add to this current core that will help the team become a much better contender against the upper echelon teams. That’s why it may be best to trade CP3.
Valid Question
Since CP came to the franchise, we’ve made the playoffs 3 times. One time, we really threatend to be a serious contended.
But in the other two times, were were completely blown out against Denver and provided only some stiff resistance to the Lakers, going 3-8 in the two series.
I agree with you that CP’s goal first and foremost is to win a championship. While I ahve no dobut that he prefers the storybook finish of winning it in NO, I have no doubt that if push comes to shove and he has to choose between staying in NO or having a better chance at winning a title, he will choose the latter. He explicitly said so last summer.
Then we come to the question of whether we have done enough to convince CP to stay after next year. Frankly, I’m a bit sceptical. I also agree with you that the options of adding to the current core or counting for internal improvement, are quite limited — we made sure of that by trading away Collison and Thornton.
That makes for quite a conundrum and makes the question of trading CP a real and legit but very thorny question. Further, I think right now CP’s stock is at a short term high after these playoffs.
I’ve been kind of undecided on this question. Although I don’t agree with the specific ideas you proposed, I think you raised a valid point and this is a major point that the management and fans as well will have to consider. It is looming and while I don’t believe it, some people have suggested that because of a potential lockout, CP may have indeed even palyed his last game as a Hornet…
By the way
I should also mention that I had become pretty convinced of the view that you stated above as the season wore on. I was even going to write up an article about it, suggestign why it might be better to consider trading CP in the offseason after the season was over.
But now, with the season over and seeing the team play the Lakers, I’m kind of on the fence about it and more inclined to simply let the chips fall where they may and just enjoy the ride, even if it means a last year with CP.
But anyway, still kind of ambivalent about the issue. If CP for instance begins again making “trade noises” this summer, that will easily be enough to sway my opinion on the issue —though unfortunately by that time CPs value or rather the value we could get in return, would have plummeted.
That’s why a truly ruthless GM would probably just trade CP this summer ^^…
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