Trading Chris Kaman: Houston Rockets Edition
by Rohan on Jan 28, 2012 1:29 AM CST
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Chris Kaman has been been a consummate professional since joining the Hornets, and, if we're being honest, he's really been a lot more than that. He's embraced the city entirely, taking in its various sights, interacting with users on the internet, showing interest in how fans watch the Hornets on television, and just generally being highly appreciative of a situation that was thrust on him abruptly and, it could be said, antagonistically.
It's why yesterday's announcement that the Hornets are actively looking to trade him is saddening, even if Kaman has only been with the team for a month. But here we are. Kaman has likely played his last game as a member of the New Orleans Hornets, as Dell Demps/David Stern attempt to find a suitable landing spot.
Yesterday, we were given some insight into potential trade partners:
Wojnarowski went onto clarify that the Jazz were interested at one point but that Kaman doesn't make too much sense in their loaded frontcourt now. Sports Illustrated's Chris Mannix also corroborated the Houston Rockets' inclusion on the list, and also added that the Boston Celtics are interested but don't believe they have the pieces to get a deal done. Wojnarowski also noted later that the Hornets' current asking price is "draft picks, cap space, and a young player," something most teams have balked at.
We'll start today by looking at how a Chris Kaman to Houston trade could happen, and gradually work our way to the other teams over the next few days. Jump!
Trade Restrictions
There are two primary restrictions that affect Chris Kaman trades
(1) he can't be moved in multi-player deals until February 14th (60 days after the Chris Paul trade). The NBA trade deadline comes about a month after this date - March 15th
(2) per the new CBA, teams that pay the luxury tax "can acquire no more than 125 percent plus $100,000 of the salaries they trade away," and teams that are under the luxury tax (after a trade has been made) "can acquire up to the lesser of 150 percent plus $100,000, or 100 percent plus $5 million of the salaries they trade away."
This means it's theoretically easier to trade Kaman's contract now than it would have been before the lockout. San Antonio is the only team among the three that is in the luxury threshold, but they're close enough to the line that a potential deal could put them under the tax (and make the 150% rule applicable).
Don't let the "150% + 100K or 100% + 5M" line confuse you too much. The 150% rule will always be the lesser up to a difference of $9.8M in the incoming to outgoing salary in the trade. More on this in one second.
Chris Kaman's Contract
Chris Kaman is due $13,672,927 this season, which includes a $1,472,927 trade kicker he received for being dealt from the Clippers. There's a little quirk with the kicker itself that needs to be sorted here. Kaman's pre-kicker salary - about $12,200,00 - is used in the calculation to match salaries between the two trading teams.
If we refer back to the 150% line for a second, this means that the Hornets have a well-defined range of contract values they can acquire back in a Kaman deal - $8.13M to $18.3M. You can see now how the 100% rule can't ever come into play in a potential Kaman deal. This is, of course, operating under the assumption that the Hornets' trading partners will also be under the luxury tax line after any trade has been completed.
So with that, it's off to the Rockets themselves.
Houston Rockets
Players, Salaries, Trade Exceptions, and Draft Pick (protection in parentheses) Statuses
| Kevin Martin | $11,519,840 | 1sts Owed | 2nds Owed | 1sts Owned | 2nds Owned | ||
| Luis Scola | $8,591,793 | '12 (lotto) | '12 | '12 NYK (top-5) | '12 MIN | ||
| Samuel Dalembert | $7,000,000 | '13 | '15 LAC | ||||
| Kyle Lowry | $5,750,000 | ||||||
| Hasheem Thabeet | $5,127,720 | ||||||
| Jonny Flynn | $3,414,720 | Exceptions | |||||
| Jordan Hill | $2,855,760 | None | |||||
| Terrence Williams | $2,369,040 | ||||||
| Courtney Lee | $2,225,093 | ||||||
| Goran Dragic | $2,108,000 | ||||||
| Patrick Patterson | $1,959,960 | ||||||
| Marcus Morris | $1,823,280 | ||||||
| Chase Budinger | $854,389 | ||||||
| Chandler Parsons | $850,000 | ||||||
| Jeff Adrien | $762,195 | ||||||
| Greg Smith * | $35,000 | ||||||
| Ibby Jaaber * | $15,000 | ||||||
| Damian Saunders * | $5,000 |
The Rockets will get their own '12 pick if it's in the lottery; if it is not, it belongs to the Nets. The Rockets also own a 2012 first round pick from New York, as long as it isn't in the top 5. The Stepien Rule indicates that a team cannot trade away consecutive first round picks. So theoretically, I don't see how it's possible for the Rockets to include the Knicks pick in a trade without stipulating that it is only included in the case that they retain their own pick. If you remember back to the original Lakers deal, some reports had the Knicks' selection as part of the secondary version of the trade, but it was unclear whether this stipulation existed (as I assume it must to stay within league regulations).
You'll notice that the Rockets have no trade exceptions, making Hasheem Thabeet's $5M+ contract a relatively important bargaining piece (assuming Houston wouldn't want to part with Martin, Scola, Dalembert, or Lowry in any form of Kaman trade). If we also assume that Chandler Parsons, Chase Budinger, Patrick Patterson, and Marcus Morris are off limits as well, then any two of the following players, along with Thabeet would be a legal trade: Jonny Flynn, Jordan Hill, Terrence Williams, Goran Dragic, and Courtney Lee. Of that group, I'm a fan of Hill and Lee and not so much one of Flynn.
So to summarize,
Plus Assets Houston Might Give Up:
1. 2012 New York 1st round pick (very unlikely)
2. Jordan Hill (unlikely)
3. Gordan Dragic
4. Courtney Lee
5. 2012 Minnesota 2nd round pick (to complete our collection!)
Random Pieces That Make Trades Work
1. Hasheem Thabeet
2. Jonny Flynn
3. Terrence Williams
Thoughts? Questions? Comments?
Here's the ESPN Trade Machine (appears to have been updated to the new CBA/150% rule) to play with. Let's keep the discussion limited to the Rockets for now; we'll get to the Pacers, Spurs, and the rest of 'em real soon.
Free muffins to the creator of the best Rockets deal!
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Kaman
I really do genuinely like him although I don’t care for him much as a player. He’s handled this whole situation very respectfully and the entire fan base owes him a pat on the back for the way he’s conducted himself. Finding out the way he was traded to the Hornets, it’s got to be touch to be sent home and told not to dress with the team, etc., here at this point. But the team’s doing him a favor (and doing right by the organization) by moving him to a contender. Houston and San Antonio make the most sense and while it always sucks to trade someone to an in division rival, it’s something that could benefit the team (especially the Houston deal). I’d imagine the team would like at least one big man back especially since they’ll most likely deal Carl Landry as well. Just another situation I’d like to see resolved sooner than later so that Kaman can carry on with the rest of his season.
And if they’re expecting that return for Kaman, they’re out of their mind. Teams have a right to balk at that. I’d imagine the return won’t be that great for Kaman but, then again, only time will tell.
"You play to win the game."
IMO
i can’t see us trading Kaman for those 3 scrubs + Lee.. I’d be willing to take a flier on Flynn, but with Gordon, Henry, Ariza, Aminu and quite possibly Lee in the mix(if we trade with HOU), i can’t see us taking a flier on TWill.. I mean,
Thabeet – UGH
Flynn – still only 22. has some time to grow. was touted as a PnR specialist, don’t know where that went.
TWill – loved his potential. but he just can’t seem to put it all together… i dunno… still worth taking a flier on. but again, i’d rather see Aminu succeed than TWill, just because I’ve always been an Aminu fan..
an idea
maybe we can trade the Min pick to them? LOL
something like
Kaman + MIN 2012 1st for Thabeet, Flynn, Lee and whichever is better between HOU and NY pick..
Not completely stupid
Right now it looks like the NY pick will be higher (better) than Houston’s OR Minnesota’s/New Orleans’.
Wished Kaman didn't play so bad for us.....
Because of his multiple TOs on a nightly basis AND his inability to generate offense, we’re asking teams to take a very expensive player and getting mediorce talent in return. This sucks… In the begining of the season, it was viewed that moving him would land us a young talented player with experience that would help soften the blow of losing CP3. We need help NOT a handout. I also figured Landry’s name would come up in a trade and I hate that. Eventhough he’s had a recent drought, I hope the game/win against Orl, marked the end of that because he’s definitely our BEST player off the bench and would prob start on most teams in the league. From the beginning of the season, I wished we could’ve gotten Jordan over Kaman BUT since we didn’t, we’re left with uncertainty and big questions in a return from Kaman.
Yep
If I’m the Hornets, no way I’d have deactivated him. I would have attempted to let him play through his struggles just so he could salvage some value on the season. Only thing I can think of is they had this thought but he continued to just suck it up. Instead it’s better to have little memory of recent play rather than nothing but recent bad recollections?
Inactive
Due to them trying to keep him from getting hurt is what Demps said.
"You play to win the game."
by MrWayneKeller on Jan 28, 2012 10:10 AM CST up reply actions
13 mill a year
Is startling and reason enuf to trade him. Even if we get only get less expensive bench ornaments in return. He needs a change of scenery cause beignets don’t seem to agree with him.
"I've seen George Foreman shadow box, and the shadow won." Muhammad Ali
$13 million
Is market value for a competent seven footer. It makes Smith and Ayon’s seem like such a steal. ($2.5 and $1.6 respectfully)
by usnfish on Jan 28, 2012 7:35 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
I understand but...
It’s still amazing that a player with so many deficiencies- no foot speed, turnover prone, limited defensively- commands that kind of salary.
"I've seen George Foreman shadow box, and the shadow won." Muhammad Ali
by BenDerDonDat on Jan 28, 2012 7:44 AM CST up reply actions
From the Rockets perspective
Thabeet+Flynn plus a late pick is likely what they will offer first. And from a macro perspective that is still a haul.
For Chris Paul the Hornets receive Eric Gordon, Al-Farouq Aminu, Jonny Flynn, Hasheem Thabeet, Minnesota’s #1 and (insert pick).
Kaman has a bigger role than just his play in this trade. Houston dumps salary (when his contract expires) to go after a big free agent/flexibility to trade for one this summer. Also Flynn and Thabeet hardly play for the Rockets. The other pieces mentioned are significant role players.
by usnfish on Jan 28, 2012 7:32 AM CST via mobile reply actions
Why no future for Flynn?
First gets drafted by the Timberwolves along with two other point guards. Starts 81 games and makes 2nd All-Rookie Team. Traded to Houston (with two PGs already). Jonny Flynn is 22 years old and was drafted 6th and we’re already giving up on him?
by usnfish on Jan 28, 2012 7:47 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
i actually
see a future for him.. but its REALLY REALLY FAR.. and it would take a lot of hard work on Flynn’s part
Hard work...
Or going from Kevin Rambis/David Kahn to Monty Williams/Dell Demps? As a rookie Flynn shot 35% from three and has elite ball handling/athelticism. And again, he has yet to be put in a position to be successful.
by usnfish on Jan 28, 2012 8:36 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
hmmmm...not quite
He’s horrible. Nice young man, Flynn is. But he is not good at basketball. I don’t know what elite athleticism he has, it never showed. Defensively he is completely lost. Offensively he can’t run a team at all.
Timberwolves
Being lost on defense and lacking the ability to run a team is a direct result of playing for Rambis. The same guy that wouldn’t play Kevin Love. Flynn has every chance to be successful if he ends up on the Hornets and is given a chance.
by usnfish on Jan 28, 2012 9:01 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Flynn is the type of player Demps will look at.
Some really young player stuck at the end of a bench, who can be really good if given the chance.
here is my trade
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=7sgclow
Now i know it prolly won’t work. We get thabeet, budinger, flynn, and morris
I know its all based on contracts and dollars...
But it seems like that’s a pretty decent haul. Personally, I would have liked to see the Hornets draft Budinger when he came out of college. Guy has a nice 3 pt shot. If flynn were to develop into a decent PG, we wouldn’t have to think about drafting one.
I doubt the Rockets would let Budigner or Morris go
Budinger is one of their main bench guys and i doubt theyll let their top15 pick go for Kaman
I like morris
because he is one of the most nba ready players from this draft he can shoot and rebound and hes only 20
Why Is Everyone
Commanding good players in return for Kaman? We’re seriously lucky if we get players like Thabeet or Craig Brackins back in return for him.
You guys really gotta worry about getting your hopes up too high for a big return for Kaman. Teams know the Hornets are actively trading him, they see how he’s played this year. A good team will take him and we may get a good player back in return, but we can’t be demanding draft picks or Goran Dragic or anything related to that. It’s not happening.
"You play to win the game."
If I was Demps
I would have said the team that comes forward with the most picks quality over quantity gets him. However I am not Demps so there is that.
Doubt It
Best case scenario is the Hornets pitting two teams against one another, but if someone knows you’re trying to give a player up, the offers aren’t going to be overly enticing. Especially with the Hornets being so openly forward about moving him; I’d imagine that they just move at the best possible deal in the next couple of days; which isn’t enough time to really have the teams bargain against one another.
"You play to win the game."
by MrWayneKeller on Jan 29, 2012 12:20 AM CST up reply actions
This isn't the standard situation
He’s a decently skilled 7 footer who is also an expiring. Trust me, there are plenty of GM’s who want to add him.
Exactly
Kaman is not going to fetch a lottery pick. It will not happen. Maybe a late first or a second and salaries to make it work. Flynn+Thabeet and a #2 would be a steal.
by usnfish on Jan 28, 2012 10:46 AM CST via mobile reply actions
That's
A very good point, too. We’ll just have to wait and see what the return is but I’m just warning against anyone thinking the Hornets are going to get a steal in this. If it does happen I’ll be pleasantly surprised but I certainly won’t expect it.
"You play to win the game."
by MrWayneKeller on Jan 28, 2012 10:56 AM CST up reply actions
They could/would
give up Jordan Hill. His option was declined.
"The ability to speak does not make you intelligent"- Qui-Gon Jinn
I rather get Hill than Thabeet
ive never seen Thabeet play but Hill knows what his role is, hustle, rebound and get put back dunks, every team needs one of those
We will miss Kaman
He was very turnover prone but he’s a legit 7 footer, who at his best, can score with his back to the basket and from midrange who helped us dominate on the boards on a nightly basis. We’ll probably miss him more than people realize.
Fortunately, the gradual emergence of Jason Smith and hopefully Ayon will help to cover the hole created by Kaman’s departure.
If we could get Dragic in return, we’d have to be pretty happy. Dragic looks like he could be a solid starting point. Alternatively, 2 out of 3 from Courtney Lee, Thabeet and Hill might be ok too. Courtney Lee is a Monty-type player.
Can't see HOU
letting Lee go. Not sure how they feel about Dragic or Hill but pretty sure it’s not too high.
My trade idea.
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=7d5lnhm
"Sleeping on me probably in the coffin" - Tyga
Rally Squirrel will steal yo gurl.
SANI BOOOOOY!!!
Follow me on Twitter @onpointlikecp3
You could swap Hill out for Courtney Lee.
"Sleeping on me probably in the coffin" - Tyga
Rally Squirrel will steal yo gurl.
SANI BOOOOOY!!!
Follow me on Twitter @onpointlikecp3
by OnPointLikeCP3 on Jan 28, 2012 4:24 PM CST up reply actions
You know
I have been on a lot of boards today and most people miss the whole point of what the hornets are doing. Examples as followed
(insert hornet fan here) Man we should get Al Jeferson – really this defeats the point of getting rid of a big to give the ones we have time. (but landry will be traded) You know know this how? He has a no trade clause and I really think he likes the money and roll he has here will not approve a trade.
(insert hornets fan here) with the rockets we can get x player plus x player plus x player and x player. So we have all these young players that might become really good or solid but not even enough minutes to develop them in. I suppose it’s okay for the Hornets who are owned by the NBA to have 19 players the the Rockets to have 9 on there roster.
(insert Hornets fan here) I take this point guard ( late 20’s) and this player (late 20
s) now were back to square one in regards to not having enough time to develop the guys we have.
In my opinion we should only get picks or a SG (since belly is mute for the future).
We need to see Professor X develop we need to see Aminu, Ayon Smith Vasquez.
If we bring older more established players back Monty will be trying to play this person on this night and this night so in so plays for 30 so a young only gets 8 minutes.
This is not development in my eyes. (besides the more minutes they play the more ping pong balls we get, or worse case scenario they come into there own and kick ass (not really a worse case scenario though).
Oh and one more thing
Seems like most of the trade scenarios you find have Kamen and one other person going to the other team. THIS CANNOT HAPPEN RIGHT NOW.
Jordan Hill had his 2012-13 option declined
Expect him to be available. I wouldn’t expect to see Lee moved for an overpaid, aging, would-be backup center.
Check out The Dream Shake.
I'd Imagine
That’s the sentiment around all of the suitors which is the only reason I’ve told people to not expect any amazing return for Kaman.
"You play to win the game."
by MrWayneKeller on Jan 29, 2012 10:20 AM CST up reply actions
"Amazing?"
I wouldn’t say the majority is expecting this, just more than the roadkill you’re thinking. :)
Expecting Someone Who Will Crack the Rotation
For years to come is expecting something amazing. Unless the Hornets get a draft pick that turns out to be that player, he won’t be coming back in this deal. You, yourself, said any deal with Houston has to start with Dragic. That’s expecting something amazing.
"You play to win the game."
by MrWayneKeller on Jan 29, 2012 11:55 AM CST up reply actions
Your choice of verbiage
throws me off at times. Amazing = Dragic? I consider this to simply be good. Kevin Martin or NY’s first rounder would be amazing.
Why do you continue to discount Kaman so much anyways? We’re all aware that he hasn’t looked good in his limited run as a Hornet, but he has obvious value. When you consider the importance of depth in this injury riddled year + his size and skill + his expiring contract he really does have obvious value to practically all playoff contenders. You seem to be discounting all of this simply because of his current lackluster production.
Just My Hunch
We’ll see what the team gets in return. I didn’t say Dragic was amazing but that getting him in return would be. I didn’t say “I’ve told people not to expect any amazing players” for Kaman I said “not to expect any amazing return.” And I said getting Dragic back in return would be amazing.
"You play to win the game."
by MrWayneKeller on Jan 29, 2012 12:53 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah I got that
Just don’t get Dragic = amazing return. Why does your hunch expect total garbage in return? I put forward my argument but how do you back up yours? Don’t you think other teams realize we’ll just sit on Kaman and gladly take him off the books for next season if there isn’t a deal worth making?
Not At All
We sent Kaman home. At the very least, he’ll be bought out after the deadline passes. I never said the team would get total garbage in return either. For someone who’s so particular about what’s exactly said, I find it odd you’d throw that nugget out there. I just think that Kaman’s game has diminished (it was never great to begin with) and after seeing what Peja’s expiring contract last season or what young, talented players like Collison and Thornton got the Hornets in return, I just don’t expect a lot in return for Kaman. I didn’t say the team would get garbage, but I wouldn’t expect anyone who’s going to contribute long term to the team.
"You play to win the game."
by MrWayneKeller on Jan 29, 2012 4:53 PM CST up reply actions
I didn't see the Nets on the interested teams
but I think they’d be a good fit. They have some young talent (sort of) and they’re wanting a lot of cap space to make a splash right before they move to Brooklyn. Also, the Lakers would make sense, except for the fact that they have nothing good to trade.
"Sleeping on me probably in the coffin" - Tyga
Rally Squirrel will steal yo gurl.
SANI BOOOOOY!!!
Follow me on Twitter @onpointlikecp3
Maybe this Nets-Hornets trade?
It gives the Hornets another expiring to use for more trade bait, and a good youngster in Damion James. Maybe the Nets would throw in a 2nd.
"Sleeping on me probably in the coffin" - Tyga
Rally Squirrel will steal yo gurl.
SANI BOOOOOY!!!
Follow me on Twitter @onpointlikecp3
aaaaaand I forget the link.
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=6u6blyy
"Sleeping on me probably in the coffin" - Tyga
Rally Squirrel will steal yo gurl.
SANI BOOOOOY!!!
Follow me on Twitter @onpointlikecp3
by OnPointLikeCP3 on Jan 29, 2012 1:16 PM CST up reply actions
Man I loved Damion James out of college
Not so sure any more though. And he’s out for the year I think.
Rockets fan here
Personally I wouldn’t mind trading you guys Scola, if I was GM. What else would it take to get Kaman for him?
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